Railroaders' Nostalgia > Railroaders Pecking Order

When this started is anyones guess and it sure doesn't exist today, but for a long time it was the norm!
I've heard from the old heads this numerous times: At the railroad furnished eateries, there was a pecking
order at the table. The Conductor didn't speak to the Brakemen, the Engineer didn't talk to the Fireman,
the Brakemen and Firemen socialized and the Conductor and Engineer were seated far apart!
Am I getting this correctly?

I wonder in the yard, if the yardmasters stayed away from the switchmen?

ValvePilot Wrote:
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> When this started is anyones guess and it sure
> doesn't exist today, but for a long time it was
> the norm!
> I've heard from the old heads this numerous times:
> At the railroad furnished eateries, there was a
> pecking
> order at the table. The Conductor didn't speak to
> the Brakemen, the Engineer didn't talk to the
> Fireman,
> the Brakemen and Firemen socialized and the
> Conductor and Engineer were seated far apart!
> Am I getting this correctly?
>
> I wonder in the yard, if the yardmasters stayed
> away from the switchmen?

I thought you worked for the SP......

On the UP in Los Angeles the only time I ever experienced any thing sort of like a "Pecking Order" was the first time I ever worked the daylight Paramount Swicther on the San Pedro Branch. It was a 5 day a week job that did hardly any work.Therefore the seniority was very high.The first day I worked it the engineer took me outside as soon as I got there and showed me where he parked his truck,where the conductor parked, his car and then told me "You can park anywhere else".  He then took me back inside the depot and led me into the baggage room. It had no windows and in a far corner was an old Lazy Boy recliner. He stated "This is where I go to Lunch". Never come in here during lunch" Then it was where the Conductor took his lunch. And then it was" You can take your lunch anywhere else". This job had so much free time that they completly re painted thier caboose. It was a CA-11 bay window and it took them a while but it came out outstanding.

ValvePilot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When this started is anyones guess and it sure
> doesn't exist today, but for a long time it was
> the norm!
> I've heard from the old heads this numerous times:
> At the railroad furnished eateries, there was a
> pecking
> order at the table. The Conductor didn't speak to
> the Brakemen, the Engineer didn't talk to the
> Fireman,
> the Brakemen and Firemen socialized and the
> Conductor and Engineer were seated far apart!
> Am I getting this correctly?
>
> I wonder in the yard, if the yardmasters stayed
> away from the switchmen?

The only rule that I know of came from a B&OCT engineer. He said that if the train crew and the engine crew went different places to eat, go with the engine crew.

TAW

I never saw any thing like Yardmasters staying away from Swicthmen as the Yardmasters never left for lunch,they ate at thier desk. Remember also when someone treats you like S**t the little guy will get even with you every chance he can. Not just once but until one of you is gone.He just can't get the satisfaction of letting that person know that he did.

On the SP, when I was young and dumb and full of c*m, the old timers of the day told me that the dividing lines were pretty much around which union you were in. For example, a BLE engineer wouldn't talk to nor socialize with a BLF&E fireman. The situation was similar with the trainmen (BRT/ORC), but not so pronounced with the switchmen, who were all in one union, the SUNA. There was also a bit of craft division between engine and train crews: the E stayed in certain hotels and ate at certain restaurants; the trainmen stayed at different ones and ate at separate restaurants (or separate tables when there was only one beanery in town ). All this started breaking down around 1960-1970. As with the hand signs, the situation varied in severity from division to division, terminal to terminal, and railraod to railroad.

It still goes on.  The pecking order when deadheading or riding in a vehicle is that the conductor ALWAYS sits up front. 

Fred, was that JD Phillips and Eldon there at Paramount? I can't remember who the regular engineer was.

Hired out on Santa Fe in Los Angeles in summer '78, never experienced any of that except for conductor riding shotgun in van. I preferred it that way as I could lay down in one of the back seats.
JB

Mike, Joe Shafter Engineer & Jerry Brown Conductor.

Don't remember either of them. Must have been after I left. It was definitely Phillips and Voskamp when I worked that job but I can't recall who the engineer was.

I never experienced anything like that, even as a young fireman back in the early 70s.  As for deadheading, usually the conductor did sit up front, but it wasn't any hard fast rule.  As an engineer working alone, I've sat up front on many occasions so the conductor and AC (brakeman) could sit together in the back and BS. 

Although I originally hired out on the SP on the Coast Division (San Francisco) in 1972 there was still a little of this attitude by the older engineers and conductors where they didn't necessarily like each other or their subordinates but it wasn't that bad generally speaking. I saw most of it between the older engineers and the fireman if they got one (taking the $4 out of the engineer's pocket). I did hear a lot of stories from the "old heads" though and I was glad those days were behind us even back then.

But back in the mid-70's, I don't remember the exact year, I saw this dislike between engineers and firemen first hand, or it may even have simply been between that engineer and that fireman, I really don't know. The East Pleasanton Turn had been bulletined as a local out of Bayshore and I got assigned to the job usually working as the head brakeman; there were still 2 brakemen back then of course. The regular engineer on the job, Al (I won't use his last name), and I always got along really well. In fairly short time it got to the point where we'd go up to East Pleasanton, do all the work around there and Radum, even occasionally run up the remaining few miles of the San Ramon Branch to Kodak, or sometimes run out to Ulmar, east of Livermore to a steel company. Once everything was done and we were ready to come home many, if not most, days Al would get out of the seat and have me run the train home while he kicked back. Heck, I thought that was great.

Then on one Sunday (it was a weekend and I'm almost positive it was Sunday) we got a fireman. The engineer would bring the power out of the roundhouse himself and the herder would usually put it on the train. When I got on the engine there was already tension in the air. We took off and shot right up to East Pleasanton where we spotted the gravel pits and did a little local work. There was no gravel to pull but we did have a few general cars we ended up with plus we had to run out to Ulmar. A quick drop to get the cars on the opposite end of the units, a couple of switching moves to switch the plant and build our train, and we were ready to head home. This is where it got a little weird.

I was already on the ground after making the joint and cutting in the air so I just had to walk to the west unit. Al came out of the cab followed by the fireman and as he got about halfway along the walkway he called to me, "Hey, Dave, take us home", and right in front of the fireman threw me the reverser. I was rather stunned he deliberately did this right in front of the fireman, a definite snub to the fireman, and to this day I don't know if he did that because he hated all firemen or just that fireman but that fireman never came back out with us.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/16 17:54 by Railbaron.

Those were the days of "VETO" jobs: every 5th train called whether local or high iron required a fireman.
Some engineers were O.K. with it and some were not. Even the yard goats had veto positions. Some
engineers let you run others did not. The hostility came mostly from the older heads. The young hoggers
were cool.

ValvePilot Wrote:
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> Those were the days of "VETO" jobs: every 5th
> train called whether local or high iron required a
> fireman.
> Some engineers were O.K. with it and some were
> not. Even the yard goats had veto positions. Some
> engineers let you run others did not. The
> hostility came mostly from the older heads. The
> young hoggers
> were cool.

In SLO the one that seemed to hate fireman the most, from what I heard, was engineer C.K. Thorne.  Still amazes me he lived to be 92...


Allen

Good old Mortimer Snerd !!  bradleymckay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ValvePilot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Those were the days of "VETO" jobs: every 5th
> > train called whether local or high iron required
> a
> > fireman.
> > Some engineers were O.K. with it and some were
> > not. Even the yard goats had veto positions.
> Some
> > engineers let you run others did not. The
> > hostility came mostly from the older heads. The
> > young hoggers
> > were cool.
>
> In SLO the one that seemed to hate fireman the
> most, from what I heard, was engineer C.K.
> Thorne.  Still amazes me he lived to be 92...
>
>
> Allen

Fredo Wrote:
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> On the UP in Los Angeles the only time I ever
> experienced any thing sort of like a "Pecking
> Order" was the first time I ever worked the
> daylight Paramount Swicther

The Yermo Beanery had segregated seating, when I hired out. It wasn't marked in any way but boy you better know your place. Engineers sat in the booths near the window, conductors in the southwest corner, switchmen and brakemen, anywhere else.

trainjunkie Wrote:
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> Don't remember either of them. Must have been
> after I left. It was definitely Phillips and
> Voskamp when I worked that job but I can't recall
> who the engineer was.

J.D. Phillips was the conductor at one time. I don't recall ever seeing him get on the train. He used to stand outside the depot, puffing a cigar, and watch the work progress from there. I can't image Voskamp on that job.That was a fast moving job and Eldon never did anything fast. You know he invented the moon walk, don't you? Looks like he's walking but he never gets to the switch. He used to cross over to the other side, to get a switch, and would be gone so long that, many times, I was compelled to go look out the firemans side and see if he hadn't dropped dead. I think he used to light a cigatette and finish it before comming back.

I cought that job the second week that I was a qualified engineer. Of course, the branch was restricted speed and 20 mph max but they had me going 40 mph and that was never fast enough. They kept yelling, "C'mon kid! Let's go!". They wouldn't tell me where we were headed either but I darn sure better be slowed down when they wanted off! Boy have things changed!

I hired out in 1972 on the Coast Division just after the inter-divisional runs started and one of those pools was Pool 4 between Oakland and Watsonville Junction. In this pool half the crews were Coast and half were Western crews. There was one Coast conductor in this pool pretty much none of the trainmen wanted to work with. He was very bitter in general, had a very bad temper with a very short fuse and a tongue so sharp it could cut you in two. He was definitely an "old head" with a seniority date from the mid-30's as I remember and from a time when the conductor was "God" on the train. He hated "hippies" or anybody with long hair and generally hated people who were lazy and/or complained about doing the work. The only thing he hated more were dispatchers and especially managers. As soon as I type his name there are those on here who may remember him: Chris Lane.

​Because of his reputation nobody wanted to work with him. If somebody did get on his "car" (pool turn) they'd usually bid off as soon as they could. The good news for me was that with virtually no seniority I was able to bid his car in because nobody else could, or wanted to, work with him. And once on his turn I was somewhat protected because you had to bump the junior man in the pool, which would be me. For me I pretty much became the regular rear-man because of my lack of seniority. Now before anybody thinks I was crazy I had one thing going for me, well, actually two things going for me: I had short hair and was very straight-laced plus I never complained about doing the work, both traits Chris loved in a brakemen.

​In my time working with him I saw him go ballistic on managers, dispatchers, yardmasters, brakemen, engineers, clerks, and anybody else who might piss him off. His favorite thing to do if a dispatcher or manager pissed him off was to stop the train and go to eat tying up the railroad in the process. He was fearless on that plus working for him you made more money than anybody else in the pool because of the overtime. But for all this I saw what he was like if he liked you, a side probably few saw but it sure impressed me, which is why I remember it so well.

​One day coming west on some piece of crap train we were stopped at Newark doing work in the yard, probably making a pickup. A manager, who's name is lost in my memory, shows up and evidently doesn't like something I was doing. The manager starts chewing my ass about whatever it was and from out of nowhere Chris shows up. To this day I have no idea how he got there so fast. Now keeping in mind I have very little seniority/experience I was very meek with that manager. When Chris showed up he got between me and the manager and went ballistic at the manager for even talking to me. He was yelling at the manager about I was "his" (Chris') brakeman and if he (the manager) didn't like what I was doing he would talk to him (Chris) and he would decide what to do. Basically I was Chris' brakeman, not the SP's. For my part I was in total shock not knowing what to make of this. Then as the manager turned to leave Chris turned to me and in a voice loud enough for the manager to hear he said, "F**k him, kid, you're doing a great job - keep doing it and if he says something to you again let me know."

On that day I saw a side of one of the grumpiest conductors I had even seen, one that few others probably ever saw, but it showed me even the grumpiest people can have their good moments.

​Then there was a grumpy engineer who generally didn't like trainmen but that's another story for another time. <G>
 

I worked ocassionally with a real old head conductor on the SP Valley Division. His name was Chester Wampler or something
close to that. I was told he was the oldest working conductor on the SP anywhere. He was regular on 51/52.
He never said much. This was in 1967/68.
You wern't an old head unless you were promoted no later than 1940, engineer or conductor.