Railroaders' Nostalgia > Question For BLE Officers

I have a question here for former or present BLE Officers. I personally have knowledge  of this Labor Board decision first hand. Over two years ago, a CSX Eastern Lines BLE Engineer with 21 years service was terminated. His case finally made it to the NLRB last March, in Chicago. On May 25th (2017) he was awarded his job back with full back pay. He has yet to return to service and the worst thing, CSX is refusing to pay him his back pay. The BLE says they can’t help him anymore. Has anyone here ever heard of the BLE just walking away from a situation as this? In fact, are the BLE hands really tied? The CSX Engineer has been told to employee the services of a labor lawyer. I believe he has actually done this. I was always under the impression that the Labor Board was the “last “ word in a dispute. Any knowledgeable feed back here?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/17 15:20 by HardYellow.

The BLE&T should have pursued it and at least lined him up with a FLEA attorney. They could guide him to who to see. If the board sided with him, I can not understand why he hasn't been paid. If he gets an attorney, that firm should go for blood. The carrier should have to pay ALL monies, attorney fees, to make him whole. Also they should go for punitive damages.


I was a Union Officer for over 30 years and have seen a lot of crap pulled by the carriers. This takes the cake.


Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The BLE&T should have pursued it and at least
> lined him up with a FLEA attorney. They could
> guide him to who to see. If the board sided with
> him, I can not understand why he hasn't been paid.
> If he gets an attorney, that firm should go for
> blood. The carrier should have to pay ALL monies,
> attorney fees, to make him whole. Also they should
> go for punitive damages.
>
>
> I was a Union Officer for over 30 years and have
> seen a lot of crap pulled by the carriers. This
> takes the cake.


>
>
> Nudge

I am a retired SP/UP engineer. Back in the day, you at least got your job back if the dismissal was not for drugs or stealing. My son was also an engineer with CSX and was terminated at the same time this reinstated engineer was, but my son lost his case with the Labor Board and is looking to hire out with AMTRAK or a short line now. All I can say is, SP was a great railroad to work for, Union Pacific was very difficult. BUT, UP looks like Mother Teresa in comparison to the CSX. There’s even a CXS Sucks.com website. CSX really has some labor relation problems.

Guys, who just took over at CSX? Might this be his MO while he was at CN and CP?

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was always under the impression that the Labor Board was the “last “ word in a dispute.

That's pretty much the case - decisions of the National Railroad Adjustment Board (NRAB) can only be appealed to the courts in very limited circumstances. Unfortunately the limits on appeals are much more stringent for employes than for the carrier. It would seem the CSX engineer's case was heard by Division 1 of the NRAB located in Chicago, which deals with operating craft employes. There are a number of primers on the Railway Labor Act available online that explain the NRAB process.

illini73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HardYellow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was always under the impression that the Labor
> Board was the “last “ word in a dispute.
>
> That's pretty much the case - decisions of the
> National Railroad Adjustment Board (NRAB) can only
> be appealed to the courts in very limited
> circumstances. Unfortunately the limits on
> appeals are much more stringent for employes than
> for the carrier. It would seem the CSX engineer's
> case was heard by Division 1 of the NRAB located


> in Chicago, which deals with operating craft
> employes. There are a number of primers on the
> Railway Labor Act available online that explain
> the NRAB process.

Meaning, it’s not the “last “ word for the carrier. Right?

When EHH was a CP and CN, he was responsible for many employee dismissals for relatively minor infractions.

He has stated his disregard for the established labour regulations. Several employees had to seek legal assistance. The most noted case took place at Jasper AB on the CN. Three women based in Jasper as conductors were terminated while they were on maternity leave. On CN, operating employees are required to "follow the work", meaning they must report to work at any location in their (very large) seniority district rather than taking a furlough.

They were away from the railway having babies, and did not regularly check in with their employer. CN's contention was that they should make a "paper transfer" to an employment location even when they were taking a Federally mandated leave from work.

CN showed no compassion in this case, and had their lawyers rigorously fight the case. The community of Jasper and the women's co-workers raised money for legal fees to fight the case.

The women won their case after three years in the court system and were awarded their jobs back with pay. However, they had faced financial hardship during that time, and two of them had quit and abandoned the case.

A pattern emerged where the time limits on arbitration cases were exceeded by the railways, resulting in default awards to the appellants.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/17 11:18 by eminence_grise.

The Unions are pretty much useless in my opinion. The membership I work with pretty much despise what little we get from the union.
Everything, and I mean everything that my Grandfather and then my Dad fought for and got have almost all disappeared for us.

bnsfengineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Unions are pretty much useless in my opinion.
> The membership I work with pretty much despise
> what little we get from the union.
> Everything, and I mean everything that my
> Grandfather and then my Dad fought for and got
> have almost all disappeared for us.


That's because your grandfather and your father came from a different time and culture. They understood that union membership is not a spectator sport and it comes with certain responsibilities over and above paying dues. And they also understood that the membership IS the "union" and that the "union" IS NOT some fat guy sitting behind a fancy desk smoking a $25 cigar. Besides the officers, how many people bothered to show up for your meeting this month?
I rest my case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/17 08:08 by Chico43.

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a question here for former or present BLE
> Officers. I personally have knowledge  of this
> Labor Board decision first hand. Over two years
> ago, a CSX Eastern Lines BLE Engineer with 21
> years service was terminated. His case finally
> made it to the NLRB last March, in Chicago. On May
> 25th (2017) he was awarded his job back with full
> back pay. He has yet to return to service and the
> worst thing, CSX is refusing to pay him his back
> pay. The BLE says they can’t help him anymore.
> Has anyone here ever heard of the BLE just walking
> away from a situation as this? In fact, are the
> BLE hands really tied? The CSX Engineer has been
> told to employee the services of a labor lawyer. I
> believe he has actually done this. I was always
> under the impression that the Labor Board was the
> “last “ word in a dispute. Any knowledgeable
> feed back here?


Historically, arbitration board awards are legally binding on both parties and have been complied with within the specified time limit, no matter how distasteful the guy who came up on the short end of the stick found it to be. Case closed.

But in recent times some carriers who consider themselves above the law have come to treat NRAB and PLB hearings like a civil court case wherein the plaintiff is awarded a judgement against the defendant and has a piece of paper in his hand that says so. Now it's up to the winner to try to collect and do keep in mind that currently on the CSX you have a cat running the show there who's marked in a whole different set of stripes.

We had a case some years ago on the property where I worked wherein an engineer was dismissed. The case proceeded up thru the protracted appeals process and finally made it's way to a PLB. The neutral found that the carrier's dismissal of the claimant to be of a totally arbitrary and capricious nature and ultimately issued an award in favor of the claimant, reinstatement and return to service within 30 days with seniority unimpaired, discipline record expunged and payment for all time lost.

The carrier was outraged at the award and refused to comply account they claimed that the award was contrary to "public policy". They took the arrogant position that if there was gonna be a reinstatement it would be on their terms and not some flunky arbitrator's. So, after another 12 months of legal wrangling the BLE ultimately prevailed and the engineer was finally back to work, with pay for ALL lost time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/17 09:12 by Chico43.

For Chico 43,

You are right. Unless members show up???????

We had a few problems that needed a vote in SLO, years ago. What we did was to "mention" something like the carrier wants to make the Zipper an assigned run, like passenger. All you needed was to let it slip around an old head and spread like wild fire. As the LC my phone started ringing off the wall. When the next meeting rolled around, the hall was packed.

The old $$ wakes people up. Oh, never did vote about the Zipper jobs.


Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are right. Unless members show up???????
>
> Nudge

Man, talk about hitting the nail square on the head.

And herein lies a key reason for my hatred of the unions. They are indeed for the most part now being run by fat cats with no involvment of the membership. That makes them just as bad as the corporations that they are against.

And this is not new.

In the mid 80's when I went to work for a trucking company that was a union shop, I did my due deligence and read all the information and went to the union hall at the next meeting as required to be officially swarn in (or whatever it was called) as a new Teamsters union member. There was a total of 9-10 people there, 4 of use being new to be swarn in.

Then in 1988 I went to work for a company that was a union shop. I again did my due deligence and read all the informaiton and went to the union hall at the next meeting as required to be offically sware in as a new member of the International Longshoremen and Warehousemens Union. There were only 2 people there, me and the person conducting the meeting.

Most people today, live in everything else, want (no expect and feel entitled) to the benefits but put nothing into the work needed for those benefits.

If the union memberships as a whole (not talking to the few that give a ****) got off their buts and actually got involved, like things were when unions first came into existance, things would be a lot different.

Chico43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And so we lay the blame on the organization's
> doorstep for that?

Well, since the union is its members...

Chico43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bnsfengineer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Unions are pretty much useless in my
> opinion.
> > The membership I work with pretty much despise
> > what little we get from the union.
> > Everything, and I mean everything that my
> > Grandfather and then my Dad fought for and got
> > have almost all disappeared for us.
>
>
> That's because your grandfather and your father
> came from a different time and culture. They
> understood that union membership is not a
> spectator sport and it comes with certain
> responsibilities over and above paying dues. And
> they also understood that the membership IS the
> "union" and that the "union" IS NOT some fat guy
> sitting behind a fancy desk smoking a $25 cigar.
> Besides the officers, how many people bothered to
> show up for your meeting this month?
> I rest my case.

I knew when I wrote this that it would come to this. Yes, I attend the union meetings and try to participate as much as I can. I have wrote to
the Union President to ask questions and to volunteer. I still stand with the union even though the leadership meaning President or Associates will NOT come out to talk to the membership personally about issues we may have. I have asked often to get them to come out for a meeting
and you guess what the outcome is. You can say all you want, but without being in the situation it is easy for a lot of you to judge.
By the way, I'm not the only one who feels this way. This is a majority view. But I'm sure that even that will be debated.
Remember the UTU General Chairman who negotiated a new contract without the membership knowing a thing about it for the so called
Super Conductor? And then people wonder why Unions are not very popular right now. At the last meeting the room was packed full and some members
had to stand. Some meetings are fuller than others. And yes I agree that there are membership that will not partake in the process.
It is hard to be at every meeting when you have a job like we do. I myself will lay off to be there. Our membership dues are close to $150.00 a month for your info. This does not include any kind of insurance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/17 15:21 by bnsfengineer.

Possibly the hold up is actually the back pay. The carrier will request W2's and 1099's. The back pay award is not supposed to be a windfall. So if he made as much while off fired as he would have while working they will not be bound to pay anything. This process can take a couple months. Sometimes they let you work during this time and sometimes they don't. I doubt the BLE has "walked away" as they are bound to represent them by law. I strongly suspect there is more to this than is being related. If the union refused to represent they could be held liable and the career can not disregard an award.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/17 18:39 by IChogger77.

IChogger77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Possibly the hold up is actually the back pay. The
> carrier will request W2's and 1099's. The back pay
> award is not supposed to be a windfall. So if he
> made as much while off fired as he would have
> while working they will not be bound to pay
> anything. This process can take a couple months.
> Sometimes they let you work during this time and
> sometimes they don't. I doubt the BLE has "walked
> away" as they are bound to represent them by law.
> I strongly suspect there is more to this than is
> being related. If the union refused to represent
> they could be held liable and the career can not
> disregard an award.


Nope! ...CSX is appealing the decision, PERIOD.

> > Possibly the hold up is actually the back pay. The carrier will request W2's and 1099's.

Since the CSX already has a W-2 for said individual, I doubt this is the problem.

>I doubt the BLE has "walked away" as they are bound to represent them by law. I strongly suspect there is more to this than is being related.

So do I.

>If the union refused to represent they could be held liable and the career can not disregard an award.

You becha! (on both counts)

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For Chico 43,
>
> You are right. Unless members show up???????
>
> We had a few problems that needed a vote in SLO,
> years ago. What we did was to "mention" something
> like the carrier wants to make the Zipper an
> assigned run, like passenger. All you needed was
> to let it slip around an old head and spread like
> wild fire. As the LC my phone started ringing off
> the wall. When the next meeting rolled around,
> the hall was packed.
>
> The old $$ wakes people up. Oh, never did vote
> about the Zipper jobs.
>

The effectiveness of the union goes beyond meetings. It depends upon the system officers, who can sink the ship before anyone realizes that they have been drilling holes in the bottom.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?18,4053630,4053638#msg-4053638 Date: 06/15/16 12:00 Re: Where's 1008? (6/6), but the beginning of the story is here:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?18,4053630,4053630#msg-4053630 Date: 06/15/16 11:56 Where's 1008? (1/6)

The guy I relieved that morning was the local chairman. In the year I worked there, three guys did time on that district, including ultimately, the local chairman. But after that Sunday morning, we decided that we had had more than enough. We put hours of work into justification of splitting the district into two. Local management (we had a good Chief) thought it was a good idea. He was really tired of his guys going down on that job. We sent the whole package to the General Chairman, who was working in another office.

Remember that folks higher up the union food chain have relationships with folks higher up the railroad food chain. That could mean that they can get things fixed. It also means that they have the ability to get things fixed, not necessarily for you. BN agreed to another dispatcher position...in HIS office, which he traded for the position in our office. And the beat went on.

This GC was the same one that several years before called the Seattle office to tell us to walk out. We weren't on strike. The strike started while we were on duty. I complained that it would be an illegal action (I was Chief - Asst Chief working vs the management Chief). He told me to walk out anyway in support. Only a few years before, the BRAC GC managed to get 25 clerks in Everett fired that way.

Years later, I went through the same thing in another BN office, but I didn't even get the help of the local chairman in putting the material together. Again, the improvement was traded at some point up the food chain.

Voting those folks out isn't that easy. If the number of folks that they take care of outnumber the number of folks that they scr...uh, put at disadvantage, they get elected and elected and elected. It's sort of like gerrymandering congressional districts.

When I started, our union officers had a lot more integrity, but so did, in general, management. Somewhere, that concept disappeared.


TAW

IChogger77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Possibly the hold up is actually the back pay. The
> carrier will request W2's and 1099's. The back pay
> award is not supposed to be a windfall.

Please show us where in what legal aspect an employer can request a federal form for an individual that was federally mandated to be given to that individual by another entity?

Please show us where in what legal aspect a back pay award due to an employee from an employer would be subject to some kind of anit-windfall clause?

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IChogger77 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Possibly the hold up is actually the back pay.
> The
> > carrier will request W2's and 1099's. The back
> pay
> > award is not supposed to be a windfall.
>
>
>
> Please show us where in what legal aspect a back
> pay award due to an employee from an employer
> would be subject to some kind of anit-windfall
> clause?


Here's two in the link below. Take your pick:

https://www.google.com/search?q=railroad+backpay+award+offset&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/17 17:18 by Chico43.