Railroaders' Nostalgia > Post merger reconciliantions

In January of 2000, three and a half years after the merger, the U.P. finally merged our engineers seniority rosters, here in Los Angeles, and I began to get called for S.P. jobs. I was excited at the prospect of working new jobs in new locations but my S.P. counterparts were less than amused. Frequently, I would set foot into a S.P. crew room and be greeted by eye-rolling, jeers and snide comments about getting "One of those U.P. guys". And it wasn't just a hazing ritual, they were genuinely displeased. While I could understand their displeasure over the merger, I could never understand why they thought a U.P. hoghead couldn't run an engine as well as an S.P. guy. I mean, after working Cajon for years, Beaumont was like child's play. The first time I took a train to Yuma, I thought my pilot was pulling my leg when he told me we were already on the steep part of the grade! Perhaps the S.P. guys were perplexed by our inexplicable penchant for rules compliance. You see, at the time of the merger, the Southern Pacific was, easily, a good ten or fifteen years behind the U.P., when it came to rules compliance and discipline. They may have thought we were all a bunch of pansies but that wasn't the case. We just already knew, full well, what the U.P. was about and what was coming their way!

Of course, over time, things would change. Eventually, respect would be earned and many friends would be made. I'd like to be able to tell you that I won them over by demonstrating spectacular feats of train handling but the truth is that progress came slowly in small and, sometimes, humorous ways. Case in point, there was one S.P. conductor who I'm made several trips to Yuma with and, while he was never disrespectful to me, he was also none too social. It seemed that,for him, working with me was just a requirement of the job which he had to tolerate.

Then, one day, he and I were working to Yuma together and our lead unit was an SD-60, which had two speedometers, one on the control stand, which only I could see, and another, up high, on his side of the cab, where we could both see it. As we departed L.A., I noticed that the two speedometers did not agree. I checked them, against my watch and found mine to be right on and his to be about ten over. Having dealt with the issue, I saw no need to broach the subject with him and nothing was said. I ran the whole trip with my speedometer, "Right on the money" but, over on his side, the needle was soaring! Yet, he never said a word. That is, until we got to Yuma. As we gathered up our belongings and made our way out of the cab, he nodded towards his speedometer and said, "Hey, thanks for gettin'er over the road". I just said, "Sure!" and left it at that but, from that day on, whenever we worked together, he always broke out and shared, with me, his stash of fine cigars!

As an aside, On merger day, 1996, I was number 75 on the U.P. Los Angeles enginemen's roster. After the dovetailing, I would not reach the number 75 position again until 2016.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/17 04:42 by crackerjackhoghead.

Great story, Crazy it took 20 years to back to the same mark.

Of course some of the "welcome" you got from the SP guys could be from "your" UP officers saying that everything SP did was wrong as the system melted down around them.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course some of the "welcome" you got from the
> SP guys could be from "your" UP officers saying
> that everything SP did was wrong as the system
> melted down around them.

You know, I don't always agree with you, but you sure hit the nail on the head here! We had UP trainers in Bakersfield that were there to teach us the "UP way" to railroad. They were always belittling the SP guys and saying we had railroaded "wrong" for nearly 100 years.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course some of the "welcome" you got from the
> SP guys could be from "your" UP officers saying
> that everything SP did was wrong as the system
> melted down around them.

You know, I don't always agree with you, but you sure hit the nail on the head here! We had UP trainers in Bakersfield that were there to teach us the "UP way" to railroad. They were always belittling the SP guys and saying we had railroaded "wrong" for nearly 100 years. The UP employees actually were pretty nice guys.

I was once a pilot for a UP Engineer from West Colton to Yuma. The UP guys called him “Bugger.” I don’t remember his name, but I know for sure, UP had much better engineers than this fellow. Don’t forget, the UP finally adopted the SP’s training program. I got that straight from Ted Lewis. Naturally, they put a UP label on it. I remember the cry from trainmaster, when an extra job was needed, “send me an SP crew.” The crew dispatchers can tell you about that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/17 09:40 by HardYellow.

Thanks for sharing this. For those of us outside the industry, it's fascinating insight!

I remember a quote in Trains Magazine from UP officer in Houston after the meltdown: "yeah, we were arrogant and thought we knew it all".

Regarding the BN and the ATSF merger I can make an observation.Having started with the ATSF well before 1995 I was able to work both the BN and the ATSF sides due to system seniority.On the ATSF "side" employees complained BN ruined the ATSF with their managers,takeover and ways of doing things.But,when I worked on the BN side I heard the same thing only in reverse.It was the ATSF and their managers that ruined the BN.Both sides agreed on one thing,both railroads were fine until the merger.If only they hadn't merged everything would have been just fine.Reality is that the industry changed and the changes would have happened without the merger.Bill Webb

spider1319 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regarding the BN and the ATSF merger I can make an
> observation.Having started with the ATSF well
> before 1995 I was able to work both the BN and the
> ATSF sides due to system seniority.On the ATSF
> "side" employees complained BN ruined the ATSF
> with their managers,takeover and ways of doing
> things.But,when I worked on the BN side I heard
> the same thing only in reverse.It was the ATSF and
> their managers that ruined the BN.Both sides
> agreed on one thing,both railroads were fine until
> the merger.If only they hadn't merged everything
> would have been just fine.Reality is that the
> industry changed and the changes would have
> happened without the merger.Bill Webb

I used to hear from BN guys (former CB&Q types) the BN was fine until the Frisco merger happened. And that the Frisco managers ruined everything.
So it seems to be a common theme. Mergers ruin everything!

I used to hear from BN guys (former CB&Q types) the BN was fine until the Frisco merger happened. And that the Frisco managers ruined everything.
So it seems to be a common theme. Mergers ruin everything!



Well, all the UP guys told us the MOPAC merger did them in. I think there might be some truth to that one.

Something to consider about the UP-SP merger and its effect on employees.

In Los Angeles for example, the SP engineers were either San Joaquin or LA Division seniority. The SJ engineers worked LA to either San Luis Obispo or Bakersfield, and protected the locals at Gemco and Oxnard. The LA Division engrs worked LA to Yuma, and protected the LA Yard jobs and all of the locals South or East of LA.

When the UP merged the engineers seniority, (which it didn't HAVE to do, and got nothing for it) an engineer who had been able to hold a local out of Gemco for 20 years, and lived near there, now had to work Pool Freight out of LA, or drive to the Harbor or some other place far from home every day.

Go ahead and merge the rosters to simplify things, but leave prior rights, then you don't do anybody damage, and you still have full availability!

The UPEE did me a favor with their hub and spoke seniority, and restricting seniority to one district. On the SP I had prior rights in LA as a switchman, and a 3/31/72 date in the yard everywhere else. After the merge, I had my 2/26/66 date in both Sparks and Roseville. Even though I worked the road, I was #1 switchman in Sparks for about four years before I retired. That would have hurt an old timer who lived and worked in Sparks all his life, and now he can't hold the day job. Again, the UP got nothing for it!
G

The rumors of the UP/SP merger, and the disaster I predicted would ensue when they dovetailed everyone's seniority, is one of the reasons I took the buyout in the early 90s. It pretty much went down the way I thought it would. Glad I didn't have to deal with it.

When you hired out to be a fireman for engine service on the UP, the date you hired was your seniority date. On the Southern Pacific, you hired out as a fireman, that was your fireman’s seniority date. Later on, you went to the Engineer’s Training Center (simulator) in Cerritos for two weeks of school and more training. After you passed the Engineer’s Simulator, your local roadforeman gave you an oral exam and check ride and promoted you. The day you took the oral exam and passed was your Engineer’s seniority date. Well, when the UP and SP engineer’s seniority roster was dove-tailed, UP allowed their engineers to use their hire out date (Fireman) as their engineers’ seniority. They would not allow the SP engineers to use their fireman’s date. they had to use their engineers promotion date, totally unfair. Bill Hannah did get the LA Engineers six years protection on the SP jobs. After the six years was up, many SP engineers basically lost seniority to many UP engineers. I lost 30 numbers, after the six years. They also allowed the Las Vegas, UP engineers (LA Div. pre merger) to break away from the LA Hub and join the Salt Lake Hub. This was to keep SP engineers from moving to Vegas and taking some of their jobs. Now, if you worked in an area where there were no UP engineers, you were not hurt with the roster merger. Tucson Div. was an example of that.

And who did we trade seniority with in the Tucson Division.

sp3204 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And who did we trade seniority with in the Tucson
> Division.

Ms. Peters.. So actually she lost 30 numbers, not I.

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you hired out to be a fireman for engine
> service on the UP, the date you hired was your
> seniority date. On the Southern Pacific, you hired
> out as a fireman, that was your fireman’s
> seniority date. Later on, you went to the
> Engineer’s Training Center (simulator) in
> Cerritos for two weeks of school and more
> training. After you passed the Engineer’s
> Simulator, your local roadforeman gave you an oral
> exam and check ride and promoted you. The day you
> took the oral exam and passed was your
> Engineer’s seniority date. Well, when the UP and
> SP engineer’s seniority roster was dove-tailed,
> UP allowed their engineers to use their hire out
> date (Fireman) as their engineers’ seniority.
> They would not allow the SP engineers to use their
> fireman’s date. they had to use their engineers
> promotion date, totally unfair. Bill Hannah did
> get the LA Engineers six years protection on the
> SP jobs. After the six years was up, many SP
> engineers basically lost seniority to many UP
> engineers. I lost 30 numbers, after the six years.
> They also allowed the Las Vegas, UP engineers (LA
> Div. pre merger) to break away from the LA Hub and
> join the Salt Lake Hub. This was to keep SP
> engineers from moving to Vegas and taking some of
> their jobs. Now, if you worked in an area where
> there were no UP engineers, you were not hurt with
> the roster merger. Tucson Div. was an example of
> that.


Well that's not quite right. After UP got rid of the fireman, there were two classes of engineers in 1988 for a total of 9 people (one guy dropped out) that received their engineer class start date as their engineer's date (I was one of them in the second class). They changed the date after those 2 classes to use their mark up date for seniority. We were not firemen, we were student engineers. I don't know where you got the 6 years number from but the prior rights have never gone away. The SP engineers got 6 or 12 years of TPA depending on which year of income they chose to use. The UP engineers never got a choice. After the merger, there were SP engineers with 1995 dates holding prior righted jobs while I couldn't hold anything (except Yermo pool) with my 1988 date.
They should have straight dove tailed the rosters like the trainmen did.

It's all a moot point now as attrition has taken it's course most of the SP and UP engineers have retired or in many cases, passed away.-BMT

We were fortunate on Santa Fe in Los Angeles. With the nearest BN property five hundred miles away pretty much nothing changed as far as seniority and who you worked with and even management. When I retired I had a switchman number, brakeman number, conductor number, engineer number and system seniority number. Only used the conductor number once for two days the last year of work. I much preferred the "seat".
JB

UPNW2-1083 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HardYellow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When you hired out to be a fireman for engine
> > service on the UP, the date you hired was your
> > seniority date. On the Southern Pacific, you
> hired
> > out as a fireman, that was your fireman’s
> > seniority date. Later on, you went to the
> > Engineer’s Training Center (simulator) in
> > Cerritos for two weeks of school and more
> > training. After you passed the Engineer’s
> > Simulator, your local roadforeman gave you an
> oral
> > exam and check ride and promoted you. The day
> you
> > took the oral exam and passed was your
> > Engineer’s seniority date. Well, when the UP
> and
> > SP engineer’s seniority roster was
> dove-tailed,
> > UP allowed their engineers to use their hire
> out
> > date (Fireman) as their engineers’ seniority.
> > They would not allow the SP engineers to use
> their
> > fireman’s date. they had to use their
> engineers
> > promotion date, totally unfair. Bill Hannah did
> > get the LA Engineers six years protection on
> the
> > SP jobs. After the six years was up, many SP
> > engineers basically lost seniority to many UP
> > engineers. I lost 30 numbers, after the six
> years.
> > They also allowed the Las Vegas, UP engineers
> (LA
> > Div. pre merger) to break away from the LA Hub
> and
> > join the Salt Lake Hub. This was to keep SP
> > engineers from moving to Vegas and taking some
> of
> > their jobs. Now, if you worked in an area where
> > there were no UP engineers, you were not hurt
> with
> > the roster merger. Tucson Div. was an example
> of
> > that.
>
>
> Well that's not quite right. After UP got rid of
> the fireman, there were two classes of engineers
> in 1988 for a total of 9 people (one guy dropped
> out) that received their engineer class start date
> as their engineer's date (I was one of them in the
> second class). They changed the date after those 2
> classes to use their mark up date for seniority.
> We were not firemen, we were student engineers. I
> don't know where you got the 6 years number from
> but the prior rights have never gone away. The SP
> engineers got 6 or 12 years of TPA depending on
> which year of income they chose to use. The UP
> engineers never got a choice. After the merger,
> there were SP engineers with 1995 dates holding
> prior righted jobs while I couldn't hold anything
> (except Yermo pool) with my 1988 date.
> They should have straight dove tailed the rosters
> like the trainmen did.
>
> It's all a moot point now as attrition has taken
> it's course most of the SP and UP engineers have
> retired or in many cases, passed away.-BMT


I'm talking about back in the 1970’s . I was a pre ’85 engineer. We all know about the 1985 agreement when the fireman went by the way side. Bill Hannah told us we had six year prior rights on LA Div SP Jobs. Was he wrong? BTW..the Vegas UP guys made a big mistake in leaving the LA Hub, IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/17 15:27 by HardYellow.

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sp3204 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And who did we trade seniority with in the
> Tucson
> > Division.
>
> Ms. Peters.. So actually she lost 30 numbers, not
> I.

Julie Peters??



Allen