Railroaders' Nostalgia > History lessons on TT&TO and railroad signalling

I post this to the Railroader's Nostalgia page because who would know better the answer to my question than folks who are not only enthused by railroads but also worked for them.

Ever since the first railroad decided it wanted to run more than one train at a time, on the same track, there had to be some form of control system to keep those trains from running into each other. In my brief time as a railroader in the late 90's I operated under various systems of controlling the tracks and separation of trains. If I can remember correctly- it's been over 15 years- there was DTC/Track warrant, DCS/Form D, D-251 track signalled for directional running, D-261 track signalled for both directions, ABS/CTC, and more, some of which were similar but slightly differed depending on what road/former road you were on, and among these were additional systems such as Automatic Train Control or CS/LSL. These were what we called "Speed Signalling" systems where the signal aspects indicate to the crew the appropriate authorized speed -but not necessarily the route- for the train through the limits governed by the signal, and I have read that out west there are "Route Signals" that indicate the route through the limits rather than the authorized speed.

I have never operated under Timetable and train order rules, though I am very intrigued by it.

On to my question: Is there a comprehensive study of the history of railroad TT&TO and/or signalling? Preferably in the form of a book, something I can hold in my hand, read, and enjoy. I am very interested in learning how the railroads progressed from the earliest days- perhaps when a road was only several miles long and the the control system was to tell Engineman Smith on #1 to watch out for Engineman Johnson, he has #2 somewhere out in front of you on the single track- to the time when that third train (and more) was added and made it necessary to add more complex safety measures. I have a copy of "Rights of Trains" and it is a very informative publication, however it does not show history. Each time it was updated the obsolete information was removed. I am looking for something that provides a history lesson. If necessary several sources that cover different aspect of the history of Train orders and signalling will suffice, but I am hoping for something more comprehensive.

Thank you for any insight you all may provide.

Dave

Paging TAW. ;)

In the mean time... http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/tawhite/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/17 08:33 by trainjunkie.

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paging TAW. ;)
>
> In the mean time...
> http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/tawhite/


Thank you for the link. I see 3 books there that are calling my name.

The classic work on timetable and train order dispatching is Frank Josserand, Rights of Trains. You can get a reprint of the fifth edition (1957) from Simmons-Boardman for $37.25 http://www.transalert.com/cgi-bin/details.cgi?inv=BKRT&cat=18 buy it through Amazon for $50 and up or read it at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015002000704;view=1up;seq=23 It may take a little time to get into it because the author assumes that you're familiar with some basics that may actually be unfamiliar to you and because the author goes rule by rule and you have to create an overall picture yourself. However, it's worth the effort.

BobB Wrote:
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> The classic work on timetable and train order
> dispatching is Frank Josserand...

Peter Josserand.

BobB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The classic work on timetable and train order
> dispatching is Frank Josserand, Rights of Trains.
> You can get a reprint of the fifth edition (1957)
> from Simmons-Boardman for $37.25
> http://www.transalert.com/cgi-bin/details.cgi?inv=
> BKRT&cat=18 buy it through Amazon for $50 and up
> or read it at
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.3901500
> 2000704;view=1up;seq=23 It may take a little time
> to get into it because the author assumes that
> you're familiar with some basics that may actually
> be unfamiliar to you and because the author goes
> rule by rule and you have to create an overall
> picture yourself. However, it's worth the effort.

Peter Josserand.

Don't bother with the 1957 edition. It's not all that good. A lot was removed.

The best edition was the 1945 edition. It's hard to find. I found just one:
https://www.abaa.org/book/274465572?dcx=274465572&aid=aa&t=1
$50.

I have a high level history and explanation in Elements of Train Dispatching Vol 1.

Among my too many projects is a book on train order operation, but unfortunately, that will be a while or so.

TAW

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paging TAW. ;)
>
> In the mean time...
> http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/tawhite/

Wow - that was my first website, maybe 20ish years ago.

TAW

puddlejumper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trainjunkie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Paging TAW. ;)
> >
> > In the mean time...
> > http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/tawhite/
>
>
> Thank you for the link. I see 3 books there that
> are calling my name.

Start with Elements of Train Dispatching Vol 1. It has a history chapter that will address, at high level, what you're looking for.

TAW

As far as TOs, Dr. Fredrick "Gamps?". He was writing a book about it in 60s & 70s and rode the engine with me on a few trips on the Coast. Sorry about the last name but its been awhile.


Nudge

There are/were two separate schemes: space separation -- manual blocks etc. and time separation: schedules, which where supplemented by train orders. For manual blocks, look for Power Railway Signaling by H. Raynar Wilson and/or The ABC of Railroad Signaling, by W. H. Eliott, both are available for free downloading via google's digitizing project. For schedules and TOs, look for any edition of the Rights of Trains. Keep in mid that all of these are generalized discussions, and the RRs modified the rules and practices to suit their whims all the time.

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as TOs, Dr. Fredrick "Gamps?". He was
> writing a book about it in 60s & 70s and rode the
> engine with me on a few trips on the Coast. Sorry
> about the last name but its been awhile.
>
>

I thought it was Fred Gamp. I corresponded with him years ago, but have heard nothing since.

TAW

As I mentioned before I have a copy of Rights of Trains. Mine is the 1951 edition. I will look for an earlier one.

TAW I will be ordering Vol. 1 this week, and probably at least 2 of the other books shortly after.

Thanks all.

Posted from Android

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trainjunkie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Paging TAW. ;)
> >
> > In the mean time...
> > http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/tawhite/
>
> Wow - that was my first website, maybe 20ish years
> ago.
>
> TAW

Still good, right? What site should I order from?

Posted from Android

Dr Frederick C Gamst. I believe at one time he had seniority on the UP in Los Angeles, as a fireman.

Charlie

Posted from iPhone

puddlejumper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > trainjunkie Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Paging TAW. ;)
> > >
> > > In the mean time...
> > > http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/tawhite/
> >
> > Wow - that was my first website, maybe 20ish
> years
> > ago.
> >
> > TAW
>
> Still good, right? What site should I order from?

www.vtd.net

I don't remember if the old site is actually hooked to anything. I don't even have the password to get into it.


Apparently trainorders won't allow that to be a live link, but it's easy enough to type.

TAW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/17 21:33 by TAW.

Thomas, you just need the http:// in front of it to make it live.

http://www.vtd.net/

BTW, I got the old link from your "public profile". You might want to update it. Click on "Public Profile" when you are logged into TO and you can update it there.

Cheers!

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, you just need the http:// in front of it
> to make it live.
>
> http://www.vtd.net/


Duh! Thanks. Part of successful multitasking is doing each of them right.


>
> BTW, I got the old link from your "public
> profile". You might want to update it. Click on
> "Public Profile" when you are logged into TO and
> you can update it there.
>

Thanks. I had forgotten all about it.

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spnudge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As far as TOs, Dr. Fredrick "Gamps?". He was
> > writing a book about it in 60s & 70s and rode
> the
> > engine with me on a few trips on the Coast.
> Sorry
> > about the last name but its been awhile.
> >
> >
>
> I thought it was Fred Gamp. I corresponded with
> him years ago, but have heard nothing since.
>
> TAW


Fred lives in Los Osos,CA. He attends the San Luis Obispo Retiree's breakfast quite often.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/17 18:00 by ButteStBrakeman.

cewherry Wrote:
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> Dr Frederick C Gamst. I believe at one time he
> had seniority on the UP in Los Angeles, as a
> fireman.
>
> Charlie
>
> Posted from iPhone


Fireman and Engineer on the UP.

My daughter lives in Los Osos & the other in Paso. I will look him up next trip down. Thanks,



Nudge