Railroaders' Nostalgia > The Day I Stopped the Sunset Ltd.

Probably have this on the wrong board but thought there might be some rails out there who would remember this day 48 years ago. A posting on one of the boards here at TO several days ago with an image of the shiney engines of the Sunset Limited in profile brought back a memory from my early days of railroading.

I was working in yard duty at the Shops yard in the LA area across the LA River from LAUPT; this particular morning as pin puller. First time working in daylight hours due to low seniority so guess I could blame the shock of daylight, but not really. We just finished a shove of empty flats into one of the pig racks and while the rest of the crew went to the shanty, I, of course, was required to follow the engine out to the main, down to the freeway overpass, then back into the lead near the shanty for our next move of the morning. My crew was still in the shanty so I decided to join them. I had just walked in the door when the booming voice of the yardmaster came over the yard speaker system (so the entire Shops area could hear), “Bethmann you dumb___, you left the Shop lead lined for the yard; get out there and line it for the main”. I am sure I broke some sort of sprint record, steel toe boots and all, racing towards the switch, turned a corner around the end of a brace of engines and there sitting at the switch points were the shiney E’s of the Sunset Limited. Switch thrown I high balled the engineer who promptly shook his head laughed out loud and walked his train the short distance across the LA River to LAUPT.

Not surprisingly the yardmaster met me at the bottom of the stairs and the reaming began. In addition to the obvious, I was nailed for running in the yard, carelessly running around cuts of cars and engines and a few other infractions. My crew went back to work without me while I waited for the suit to show up which he did about 10 minutes later. Reamed again, I was relieved when I was told there wouldn’t be an investigation.....whew!

The next day I went on the extra board, then back to graveyard.

To this day I still vividly remember those shiney E units, the laughing engineer and the day I gave up a nice daytime shift. Maybe there is some ole SP guy out there who also shook his head and laughed that morning at a young and stupid pin puller.

BB in Spokane

Posted from iPhone

I made my own mistakes on the SP, a couple of which have long been posted here. Your story, BB, is a very good one and what makes it so good is that you told it, rather than someone else. It’s a story that a very prideful person would not have told, so thanks so much for presenting it!

Westbound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It’s a story that a very prideful person would not have
> told, so thanks so much for presenting it!

The very best stories are the ones we can't tell!

Great Story

Westbound Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> It’s a story that a very prideful person would
> not have told, so thanks so much for presenting it!

I agree 100%! Thanks, bbethmann

crackerjackhoghead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The very best stories are the ones we can't tell!

Man --ain't THAT the truth! Well.... at least, not until all involved have gone to that Great Roundhouse In The Sky. Dang!

Two questions, who were your whiskers? (The people with seniority immediately before and after you?)

Secondly, who were the rest of the crew that day?
G

ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two questions, who were your whiskers? (The
> people with seniority immediately before and after
> you?)
>
> Secondly, who were the rest of the crew that day?
> G


The troll comes out from under the bridge again! I hate to torpedo this story, and the people he sucked in, but it didn't happen!

1. Please note that it has been a week since I asked him for the names of his whiskers, and the names of the other people on the crew, and he has NOT responded! Why? Because he can't! There is no Bethmann on the SP LA Switchmen's rosters, two of us who post here have checked. My LA switchman's seniority date is 2/24/66, and in 1971 or '72, I couldn't hold a day job with 5 or 6 years of seniority.

2. My LA yardmaster's seniority is 8/1969, and I never knew a switchman named Bethmann, and I (as did all the rest of the yardmasters,) knew all of the switchmen. There were less than 25 switchmen hired behind me until the brakemen and switchmen merged on 9/21/72.

3. My whiskers were Dave Foster and Ken Nordin.

4. To vacate a job under the switchmen's agreement, you had to own it for seven days, then give the crew dispatcher 48 hours written notice. He says "...first day daylight, then, I went extra and back midnight the next day...," which he couldn't have done until he owned the day job for seven days.

5. The description of the tracks isn't quite right either, #1 would have to have come against the current of traffic, from Valley Blvd. West on the East main for this to happen. If the crossover above Workman St was left open, the Dispatcher would have had a track light on the CTC "West" main.

6. The fence track switch to the East Main Line would have been on the Fireman's side of the engine.

Bottom line, I call this BS.
G



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/18 14:45 by ExSPCondr.

WOW.......never been called a liar before except when I was a kid and learned from “the rod” how stupid it was to even try to lie. So Mr. BS, first it must be very gratifying to have a whiplash memory. Second, you must have an enormous amount of time on your hands to supposedly do such in-depth checking. Third, I am very busy and have a life, evidence how long it took me to go back and read what I wrote so many months ago and that purely by accident. Fourth, I quit railroading, specifically quit the SP sometime around 1971, I think, due to the ineptness of the SP’s “railroad game” and me trying to understand the lack of motivation with the rank and file at that point. The unions sapped the energy out of a wonderful organization. To this day, I have never seen or witnessed such a lack of hustle. Not so while working the Western Division and seeing how the adjacent AT&SF really moved their “stuff”.

You see, I was one of those “college pukes” who was out to get your job, or so you thought. I was hired by RL King as a management trainee in Oakland around 1967 and worked yard duties and industry switch jobs for about 2 years. I then requested a transfer to the LA Division, I think that is what it was called, and worked Taylor and the Shops as well as a couple of tramp jobs, if I remember the term correctly, in the Glendale area. That lasted for about another two years. Seems I spent a lot of time in the shanty at the top end of Taylor and recall I really enjoyed swinging that green light doing herder duties.

Do I know my “whiskers”....no, as I really didn’t have that level of knowledge then let alone memory if I had known my “whiskers” primarily due to the way I was hired “in Oakland” nor that if I had known that it would be something I needed to remember 50 years later. Did I know the rest of the crew.....no, and I probably completely forgot within a couple of weeks after moving to another job. I have a hard time remembering the names of the yards, proper terminology let alone track configurations except that it has changed a lot in 50 years.

If I recall correctly, and again my memory is not nearly as accurate as ExSPcondr, I was bumped from the job I had, again not sure of the terminology nor exactly what happened that I ended up on another shift.....it was probably the extra board, right?

I also wondered why #1 was right up against the switch and have no answer and I probably didn’t know at the time either.

So ExSP Condr, you obviously have very fond memories of your time working on the SP in LA and as such remember a lot more than I do. My memories are vague and sketchy at best probably because I was only with the SP for maybe 4 years. My memories are not so fond as I eluded to above except that it spurned a terrific interest in trains and railroading that has encumbered me to this day. My wife calls it a genetic defect and unfortunately my kids have it also.

I remember the “snapshots” of those days quite well but that is all they are.....no video! Some are wonderful, others not so much but all are memories I will have for the rest of my life.

You and your mentality I can easily forget.

BB in Spokane


ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ExSPCondr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Two questions, who were your whiskers? (The
> > people with seniority immediately before and
> after
> > you?)
> >
> > Secondly, who were the rest of the crew that
> day?
> > G
>
>
> The troll comes out from under the bridge again!
> I hate to torpedo this story, and the people he
> sucked in, but it didn't happen!
>
> 1. Please note that it has been a week since I
> asked him for the names of his whiskers, and the
> names of the other people on the crew, and he has
> NOT responded! Why? Because he can't! There is
> no Bethmann on the SP LA Switchmen's rosters, two
> of us who post here have checked. My LA
> switchman's seniority date is 2/24/66, and in 1971
> or '72, I couldn't hold a day job with 5 or 6
> years of seniority.
>
> 2. My LA yardmaster's seniority is 8/1969, and I
> never knew a switchman named Bethmann, and I (as
> did all the rest of the yardmasters,) knew all of
> the switchmen. There were less than 25 switchmen
> hired behind me until the brakemen and switchmen
> merged on 9/21/72.
>
> 3. My whiskers were Dave Foster and Ken Nordin.
>
> 4. To vacate a job under the switchmen's
> agreement, you had to own it for seven days, then
> give the crew dispatcher 48 hours written notice.
> He says "...first day daylight, then, I went extra
> and back midnight the next day...," which he
> couldn't have done until he owned the day job for
> seven days.
>
> 5. The description of the tracks isn't quite
> right either, #1 would have to have come against
> the current of traffic, from Valley Blvd. West on
> the East main for this to happen. If the
> crossover above Workman St was left open, the
> Dispatcher would have had a track light on the CTC
> "West" main.
>
> 6. The fence track switch to the East Main Line
> would have been on the Fireman's side of the
> engine.
>
> Bottom line, I call this BS.
> G

Posted from iPhone

bbethmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WOW.......never been called a liar before except
> when I was a kid and learned from “the rod”
> how stupid it was to even try to lie. So Mr. BS,
> first it must be very gratifying to have a
> whiplash memory. Second, you must have an enormous
> amount of time on your hands to supposedly do such
> in-depth checking. Third, I am very busy and have
> a life, evidence how long it took me to go back
> and read what I wrote so many months ago and that
> purely by accident. Fourth, I quit railroading,
> specifically quit the SP sometime around 1971, I
> think, due to the ineptness of the SP’s
> “railroad game” 

>
>
> You see, I was one of those “college pukes”
> who was out to get your job, or so you thought. I
> was hired by RL King as a management trainee in
> Oakland around 1967 and worked yard duties and
> industry switch jobs for about 2 years. I then
> requested a transfer to the LA Division, I think
> that is what it was called, and worked Taylor and
> the Shops as well as a couple of tramp jobs, if I
> remember the term correctly, in the Glendale area.
> That lasted for about another two years. Seems I
> spent a lot of time in the shanty at the top end
> of Taylor and recall I really enjoyed swinging
> that green light doing herder duties.
>
> Do I know my “whiskers”....no, as I really
> didn’t have that level of knowledge then let
> alone memory if I had known my “whiskers”
> primarily due to the way I was hired “in
> Oakland” nor that if I had known that it would
> be something I needed to remember 50 years later.
> Did I know the rest of the crew.....no, and I
> probably completely forgot within a couple of
> weeks after moving to another job. I have a hard
> time remembering the names of the yards, proper
> terminology let alone track configurations except
> that it has changed a lot in 50 years.
>
> If I recall correctly, and again my memory is not
> nearly as accurate as ExSPcondr, I was bumped from
> the job I had, again not sure of the terminology
> nor exactly what happened that I ended up on
> another shift.....it was probably the extra board,
> right?
>
> I also wondered why #1 was right up against the
> switch and have no answer and I probably didn’t
> know at the time either.
>
> So ExSP Condr, you obviously have very fond
> memories of your time working on the SP in LA and
> as such remember a lot more than I do. My memories
> are vague and sketchy at best probably because I
> was only with the SP for maybe 4 years.
>
> I remember the “snapshots” of those days quite
> well but that is all they are.....no video! Some
> are wonderful, others not so much but all are
> memories I will have for the rest of my life.
>
> You and your mentality I can easily forget.
>
> BB in Spokane
>
>
> ExSPCondr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ExSPCondr Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Two questions, who were your whiskers? (The
> > > people with seniority immediately before and
> > after
> > > you?)
> > >
> > > Secondly, who were the rest of the crew that
> > day?
> > > G
> >
> >
> > The troll comes out from under the bridge again!
>
> > I hate to torpedo this story, and the people he
> > sucked in, but it didn't happen!
> >
> > 1. Please note that it has been a week since I
> > asked him for the names of his whiskers, and
> the
> > names of the other people on the crew, and he
> has
> > NOT responded! Why? Because he can't! There
> is
> > no Bethmann on the SP LA Switchmen's rosters,
> two
> > of us who post here have checked. My LA
> > switchman's seniority date is 2/24/66, and in
> 1971
> > or '72, I couldn't hold a day job with 5 or 6
> > years of seniority.
> >
> > 2. My LA yardmaster's seniority is 8/1969, and
> I
> > never knew a switchman named Bethmann, and I
> (as
> > did all the rest of the yardmasters,) knew all
> of
> > the switchmen. There were less than 25
> switchmen
> > hired behind me until the brakemen and
> switchmen
> > merged on 9/21/72.
> >
> > 3. My whiskers were Dave Foster and Ken Nordin.
> >
> > 4. To vacate a job under the switchmen's
> > agreement, you had to own it for seven days,
> then
> > give the crew dispatcher 48 hours written
> notice.
> > He says "...first day daylight, then, I went
> extra
> > and back midnight the next day...," which he
> > couldn't have done until he owned the day job
> for
> > seven days.
> >
> > 5. The description of the tracks isn't quite
> > right either, #1 would have to have come
> against
> > the current of traffic, from Valley Blvd. West
> on
> > the East main for this to happen. If the
> > crossover above Workman St was left open, the
> > Dispatcher would have had a track light on the
> CTC
> > "West" main.
> >
> > 6. The fence track switch to the East Main Line
> > would have been on the Fireman's side of the
> > engine.
> >
> > Bottom line, I call this BS.

Now we have still more BS!

1.  Management trainees are SALARIED MANAGERS, they don't ever work as part of a yard crew!

2. Management trainees don't request interdivisional transfers, they go where management tells them, period.

3. "...requested a transfer to the Los Angeles Division..."  again Mgmt. Trainees have no seniority, and the switchmen didn't vote system seniority in until Mar. 31, 1972.  As I said before, if he had been an LA switchmen from 1969 to aproximately 1971, I would have known him.  According to others, he is not on the 1971 LA switchmen's roster.

If an officer called the crew dispatcher and said "I am going to work instead of a switchman," the switchmen would have gone on strike as soon as Laura Brown could have called Jorge Baiseri!

Lastly: ":...the shiny new engines on Amtrak"  We all know when Amtrak's takeover date was, and they kept right on running the SP's 20+ year old  F7s and the UP's aged E8s and E9s for at least a couple of years, until they got the SDP40s built and delivered.  From his own testimony, he appears to have quit in 1971 before Amtrak took over, but "he doesn't remember?"

A little advice: When you're stuck in a hole, digging deeper isn't the way to get out.
G
'

Just one clarification here:
Management trainees do not now mark up as switchmen but at one time they did   When I was an SP management trainee in 1967 I did not go into the field to get on-the-ground experience because I worked as a brakeman on the San Antonio Division and kept that date until I left SP.  All trainees that had not come out of the transportation operating crafts were required to hire out as a student switchman or brakeman, resigning that seniority at the end of the required period. That period may have been 90 days but could have been more.  Others in my class who came into the program with train or yard service seniority were Mike Rountree, Doug Harrop, Gordon Toncheff and Rich Kaveny.  A couple who had to go into the yard for experience were Max Richards and Rob Krebs.  Rob mentions his switching at West Oakland in his book.  

By by the way, I do remember my place on the San Antonio roster.  I followed Paul Zappe and was ahead of David Green.  You can check it out!

rdb

 

Rollin, thank you!

There were so many things posted here that just couldn't have happened that I took exception to them.
Between the two posts, he said he was "hired as a management trainee in 1967 in Oakland as a switchman, and then requested a transfer to the LA Division in 1969."   That would have required him to quit in Oakland and hire out again in LA, as the switchmen didn't vote system seniority until March 31,1972.

Then he says he quit in 1971, and "the shiny new Amtrak engine," which couldn't have happened, because Amtrak didn't get new SDP40Fs until much later.  Not to mention Amtrak didn't take over until spring of 1971. Management trainees definitely didn't work with seniority for four years.

I was promoted to Assistant Trainmaster in April of 1973, and Trainmaster in May of 1982, so I knew all of the management trainees that worked in Los Angeles.  I worked with both Gordon Toncheff and Rich Kaveny.

There are many other things wrong with his posts, but this is enough, again thank you!
G  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/18 21:05 by ExSPCondr.