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Railroaders' Nostalgia > Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why


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Date: 08/14/18 20:00
Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: mdo

Now let's focus on who are the opponents of CHSR and why are they so negative.

The nimbys for obvious reasons.  They are always there with every new project, large or small
of course the larger the project, the moe people impacted, the more likely suspects.

The losers.  Those  whose community CHSR will not serve, but who originally wanted to be included.

The experts wo know that they have a better Idea, route, design.

The no new taxes bunch.  we can not afford this  we don't see the benefit  we don't need this
And a large subset who see this project as competing for scarce funds for their pet project.   Build my project instead

The clinics we don't need it,  It will never work,  just a typical tax and spend boondoggle 


Now why don't you expand on my list and explain why you don't like CHSR.

Why , for instance is so much of the rail fan contingent against the project?

mdo




 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/18 20:03 by mdo.



Date: 08/14/18 20:09
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: CarolVoss

. I am all fir HSR but lets start all over  from a realistic view, build the damn thing which is a really nice straight shot  from Bakersfield to maybe Stockton or Modesto, get all the bugs out that the bureaucracy will surely build in,  and  demonstrate that it works, and figure out how to make the Tehachapis and the Pacheco/Altamont crossings problem and costs  magically disappear. it was mentioned that Anshutz tried to peddle the SP coast line which could have been used as the HSR line—-lots of curves, hills and dales and the sacrosanct Elkhorn Slough in that path—-
C


Carol Voss
Salinas, CA



Date: 08/14/18 20:43
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: sphogger

MDO didn't you benefit from a California State eudcation?  Practically free in your day.  Priced a UC or CSU education lately?  Is that an example of a "pet project"?   And what about the congestion in our Urban Centers like SF Bay, LA, SD, Sac?  What will CAHSR do for those issues?  We know induced demand means more freeway capacity will be quickly filled with more traffic.  Ironically last I heard Rep's McCarthy and Nunes (Bakersfield, Fresno) think its a waste of money.  Maybe it will be a windfall for Chinese HSR Manufacturing, they need the help, their debt to GDP is roughy 300%.  Frugal Gov. Brown has a built a surplus in the budget, that could change overnight with a recession and spiralling Pension obligations.  Have the private investors stepped up to contribute to HSR as we were promised?  

I still haven't figured out who is supposed to ride this high cost not so high speed rail.  You won't see me in line at the Transbay Terminal waiting to be shoved in car by the white gloved platform attendants. 

sphogger   



Date: 08/14/18 20:44
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: goneon66

if chsr is NOT going to compete with the airlines and run between sfo-lax in under 3 hrs, i am opposed to it. 

if chsr is NOT going to be constructed within the proposed budget that was voted for, i am opposed to it.

66



Date: 08/14/18 22:09
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: Margaret_SP_fan

mdo --
You have admitted that you have personally benefitted from CA HSR, and I am sure you did NOT work for minimum wage -- far from it.  So you are hardly unbiased about this issue, and it would be very, very hard -- ery embarrassing, really -- for anyone who has made a lot of money from CA HSR to ever admit to themself, much less in public, that they were wrong to have supported such a gigantic waste of state money.

That is why humility is one of the Seven Virtues -- because it is so doggoned embarrassing and humiliating to admit publicly that one has been wrong.  It is even much, much harder to admit that one was wrong to supporting something that one got paid a lot of money to do.  Someone who does that is almost certain to take a huge hit in their future earnings, so I do not ever expect you to do that.

And CA HSR is the pet project of the California political machine, as it has made them and their cronies lots and lots fo money -- at the huge expense of the rest of us.

The biggest reason why Jerry Brown got elected Governor wsa because he is very much for CA HSR, and he is part of the California political machine.  (By the way, more than 20 years ago, I heard him say -- to a group of people he was talking to at a "Sustainability" meeting -- that he was a "recovering politician."  Man -- he really fell off the wagon, did't he?)

Even thugh Meg Whitman spent 10 times as much on her campaign as Jerry Brown did on his, he still won the election.  These days,it is almost a 100% guarantee that the highest spender will win every election.  No, I am not a "conspiracy theorist;" I am just somene wbo knows the unpleasant political facts of life. 

And please do NOT try to convince me that "there is no money for ____ "  Fill in the blank with ssomething that is REALLY important -- like fighting the many fires that are now burning.  Or paying for decent high-quality care for the elderly and the disabled -- including the growing mumbers of children and adults with austism, and for decent care for people with mental illnesses.

It will not even take another recession to use up the surplus -- paying for the costs of fighting all the fires in this state will do that.  

CA HSR is one giant example of how bad the priorities are for spendng our state's money.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/18 22:28 by Margaret_SP_fan.



Date: 08/14/18 23:51
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: kingwestinghouse

Ha ha ha, i live on the Peninsula. All of my life. Voted against it from day one. All the "Greenie" people in Atherton, Menlo Park, and Palo Alto voted for it because they thought it was gonna go through the East Bay not their precious acreage.You should be able to hear them howl at these meetings.ROW 30ft. at least from presant trackage.It's pretty funny the dumb bells that came here from somewhere else have F@$%& up the quality of life for the ones who were born and raised. Just cause its's doesn't make it great. So how does shaving 2mil of yer property value feel?



Date: 08/15/18 00:22
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: norm1153

Hmmm, I'm not too crazy about personal attacks on mdo.
 



Date: 08/15/18 11:01
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: PHall

norm1153 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmm, I'm not too crazy about personal attacks on
> mdo.
>  
Agreed, time for a timeout Todd?



Date: 08/15/18 12:26
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: CCDeWeese

I am also not in favor of personal attacks on MDO, or anyone else for that matter.  I worked for Parsons Transportation Group for 12 years and HDR for 5 years, almost all on rail projects of one ilk or another; commuter rail in Salt Lake City, high speed rail in Illinois.  I did it because various public entities put out requests for proposals (RFP) and we, whoever we were responded.  MDO was at one of the very early meeting in Salt Lake City, representing UP.  To say we were for or against any project is a stretch; we were trying to do our jobs to the best of our ability.  No one I ever recall working with thought any rail passenger project was going to make a profit.



Date: 08/15/18 14:42
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: 69440

Is this really "Railroaders' Nostalgia"?  Although the authors worked in the industry, California High Speed Rail is a current topic and belongs on Western Railroads or Passenger Trains heading.   



Date: 08/15/18 16:23
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: norm1153

69440 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this really "Railroaders' Nostalgia"? 
> Although the authors worked in the industry,
> California High Speed Rail is a current topic and
> belongs on Western Railroads or Passenger Trains
> heading.   

It is just fine where it is.  The author - only mdo - is drawing on both his past lengthy experience as a railroader, as well as aspects of the current CHSR "thingie." 



Date: 08/15/18 19:52
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: Margaret_SP_fan

Thanks, 69440!

To come to think of it, CA HSR as a subject does not belong in the "Railroaders' Nostalgia" forum because it is not "nostalgia" at all.

Here is the dictionary definition of "nostalgia":

> nostalgia

> 1.  a wistful desire to return in thought or in fact
> to a former time in one's life, to one's home or
> homeland, or to one's family and friends; a
> sentimental yearning for the happiness of a
> former place or time:

> 2.  something that elicits or displays nostalgia.

CA HSR is not in the past -- it is in the present and the future, so it does not belong in this particular forum.  It belongs in the "Passenger Trains" forum, and should have been moved there as soon as it appeared here.



Date: 08/15/18 21:05
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: ATSFSuperChief

MDO please ignore the bleaters who seem to dislike you. You are a true railroad professional and I personally really enjoy your discussions. Yes I am a railfan and also worked for a small railroad, Great Western in Colorado. My true career was in the merchant marine as an engineer, but worked for the railroad just after the Vietnam War ended and shipping went from great to horrible. Went back to sea three years later and finished my career there in 1998 as a VP of Engineering/Operations. Spent several years working with government contracts and really can relate to the CHSR issues.

SuperChiefDon



Date: 08/15/18 21:15
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: 69440

norm1153 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 69440 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is this really "Railroaders' Nostalgia"? 
> > Although the authors worked in the industry,
> > California High Speed Rail is a current topic
> and
> > belongs on Western Railroads or Passenger
> Trains
> > heading.   
>
> It is just fine where it is.  The author - only
> mdo - is drawing on both his past lengthy
> experience as a railroader, as well as aspects of
> the current CHSR "thingie." 

Just because the author worked for the railroad doesn't make a current issue a nostalgic topic.  Railroaders Nostalgia stories are usually folksy reflections about days on the road and interesting co-workers but not comments concerning current bureaucratic rail projects.



Date: 08/15/18 21:31
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: CarolVoss

I too believe that this should be on the passenger or western groups as well— all 3-  but apparently there was a decision made to keep it on the rr nostalgia board. The topic crosses many lines and it is notable to me that yesterday our Bay Area News Group paper editorial was by Dan Walters mentioning the apparent HSR debacle  but then today the local editions took up the theme— dump the project. I dont fault MDO for bellying up to the trough— when you are in business for  yourself you follow the money— I applaud MDO for using his experience in the project consulting for bringing this topic to our attention on this forum—
C

Carol Voss
Salinas, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/18 21:44 by CarolVoss.



Date: 08/15/18 21:54
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: 69440

mdo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now let's focus on who are the opponents of CHSR
> and why are they so negative.
>
> The nimbys for obvious reasons.  They are always
> there with every new project, large or small
> of course the larger the project, the moe people
> impacted, the more likely suspects.
>
> The losers.  Those  whose community CHSR will
> not serve, but who originally wanted to be
> included.
>
> The experts wo know that they have a better Idea,
> route, design.
>
> The no new taxes bunch.  we can not afford this
>  we don't see the benefit  we don't need this
> And a large subset who see this project as
> competing for scarce funds for their pet project.
>   Build my project instead
>
> The clinics we don't need it,  It will never
> work,  just a typical tax and spend boondoggle 
>
>
> Now why don't you expand on my list and explain
> why you don't like CHSR.
>
> Why , for instance is so much of the rail fan
> contingent against the project?
>
> mdo
>
You didn't have to private message me in a stern manner to state that you originally posted this on the passenger site and that Todd Clark moved it here.  You can let rest of the readers know that statement and now they do.  Relax.
>
> , 
>
>  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/18 22:02 by 69440.



Date: 08/15/18 23:16
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: TomG

Im in support of Margaret and her responce. If I was making good money off the project I to would have a vested interest as well, after all, you dont bit the hand thats feeding you. If this thing went from top of california to the bottom in a fairly straight line and had high speed feeders from other areas i might be more interested. But this thing only benifits SF and LA areas with a bonus to Fresno since it sits along the path. If this thing was paid for like Bart is with a tax to to the area that will use it, then the rest of us wouldnt have a whole lot to say about it. We could cry in out oatmeal and feel left out. But there are lots of tax payers that will never even see this mess, little lone ride it. Should i drive 6 hours just to ride it to LA when I can drive there in 8? The true North, which is north of Sacramento,  always plays back seat to the the bay area and LA basin. We were hit with water restrictions and penalties so LA could frolic in their pools, we must accept a train we will never see or ride but pay or fair share to build it. These are the type of things that fuel split the state people. Heck ya id ride it if I had access to it, but they dont feel the rest of us are worthy.



Date: 08/16/18 09:36
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: sphogger

I've enjoyed these posts.  Everyone has bias' and vested interests.  Not interested in questioning anyone's motives.  My vested interest is not preventing CAHSR, its things like affordable education, Medicare, Social Security etc.  Jerry's dad Edmund G. Brown had his great public works projects when California and the nation were expanding and experiencing good times.   CAHSR costs a lot of money, too much red tape and for what benefit?  Corporations and wealthy people are leaving California.  Yesterday 650 North Face Bay Area jobs leaving California for Denver.  Money from the Fed's only pushes the Trillion dollar Federal deficit higher.  

MDO mentioned Quentin Kopp.  I remember him promoting HSR on radio.  His comments in 2013:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/16/opinion/la-oe-morrison-kopp-20130416

sphogger
 



Date: 08/16/18 09:40
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: Exespee

This is getting as petty as much of the stuff on Altamont Press.  Grow up!



Date: 08/16/18 10:00
Re: Mad Dog Chronicle # 313.5. Who opposes CHSR and why
Author: TAW

TomG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im in support of Margaret and her responce. If I
> was making good money off the project I to would
> have a vested interest as well, after all, you
> dont bit the hand thats feeding you.

You are both making an unfair characterization. Your position may be sometimes true, often true, generally true, etc., but you do not have available the data that proves it true in the instant case.

I handled white trains and was paid (rather) well to do it. Does that give me a vested interest in starting WWIII? I know someone who paid her way through engineering school working for Rockwell, if I remember correctly, developing some system for nuclear weapons. The job paid for an engineering education that went toward some of the advanced telecommunications that we are using every day. Her rationale was that absolutely nobody really wanted a nuclear war and it was a step in a path to do good. She likewise had no vested interest in starting in WWIII.

I have encountered several types of folks in the consulting business. Some have to be careful that the ink doesn't smear on their brand new MBA. They are out to sell everything they know, even though it isn't much (the stereotype consultant from the joke about borrow your watch to tell you what time it is). Some are pretty good at what they do but may embellish how good. Some put a lot of effort into selling projects, any project. Engineering companies expect the consultants they employ to do that. Some will agree to justify a predetermined conclusion if that is the job, just to score the job. Some will avoid coming to a conclusion within the scope and budget in order to force a larger budget. I've seen all of that. Then, there are the people like MDO and CCD continue their careers after retirement by offering their considerable knowledge. I know several who have done that. In my case, I never set out to be a consultant, and I'm not retired. I left BN(SF) when they left Seattle. Consulting just happened. Nonetheless, I'm in business selling knowledge of railroading, like MDO, CCD, and many others. Perhaps some folks think that knowledge should just be lost.

MDO said he worked on CAHSR. He didn't say anything about what he did or what he told them. I've told clients what they didn't want to hear. Some have been grateful. In some cases it was the end of the gig. Have you thought that maybe MDO told CAHSR what they didn't want to hear? One colleague who worked on CAHSR quit and went without work for a year because they didn't want to hear what she told them and she didn't want to do the work like they told her. Does that give her a vested interest in CAHSR? Chances are that MDO didn't tell CAHSR that there would be no problem building on UP right of way or any other conclusion merely because the client didn't want to hear it.

Sit back and think it through before making accusations.

TAW

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/18 12:19 by TAW.



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