Eastern Railroad Discussion > MD lawmakers to push forward with Howard St. Tunnel expansion!

This is the latest from the Baltimore Sun newspaper.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/politics/bs-md-ci-howard-street-tunnel-congress-20171102-story.html

I'm thinking of a few possible scenarios.

1. I'm wondering if the state could use the procedure known as "Eminent Domain"
to gain control of the Baltimore Belt Line Railroad. (The original corporate
name of the trackage between Camden Station and the Bay View Yard.)

2. Could the FRA (or other Federal govt. agency) grant NS trackage rights
from Bay View Yard through the tunnel? Under the premise of being in the
public's best interests.
PS: Can anyone tell me the closest location of NS trackage West/South
of Baltimore City?

3. NS currently serves the Dundalk Marine Terminal. The Canton Railroad Co.
in conjuction with CSX serves the Seagirt Terminal. NS crosses the Canton
Railroad at S. Newkirk St. & Keith Ave. Seagirt Terminal is owned by the
State of MD. It would be a simple matter to install a connection there.

If NS really wanted to serve Balto with stacks they could do so by funding the improvement of AMTK's catenary clearances from Perryville to Bayview appx 32 miles. This might be expensive, but could be done (CSX runs stacks under SEPTA wires near Trenton, NJ) but that is with slower speed for passenger. NS already has an intermodal train in/out of Balto; and it is my understanding they have most of the priority biz. See my and other's comments on this subject in the last two days, especially about the marine limitations of Balto. (It is my hometown, but I have to even in old age be realistic). Norfolk Southern is HQ in Norfolk. They were a big factor in developing international trade over Norfolk. It is rail routes to the west that matter to the 15 or more steamship lines that serve Norfolk with 5 to 7 mostly now post Panamax vessels each day. It is tough for Balto, Phila, and other up-river ports to compete with Norfolk; two hours or less from harbor pilot boarding to first line at a big container port. I do not see why NS would want track rights south thru Balto if CSX did enlarge the tunnel, or why CSX would give it to them.

I have an idea that has not been thought of to my knowledge. CSX already operates trains into the Curtis Bay Yard on the South side of the Patapsco River. If you look at a railroad map, CSX has a line (former B&O) that continues past the Curtis Bay Yard and goes over Curtis Creek near the U.S. Coast Guard Station, then the line turns north and goes under Fort Smallwood Road, and passes where the old Striegel Equipment Co. (scrap yard where both the former Reading T-1's #2100 and #2101 had been stored prior to the 2101 becoming the American Freedom Train #1). This line continues to serve various industries and actually goes under the Francis Scott Key Bridge of the Baltimore Beltway 695 right to the Patapsco River serving more industries. My question is: what would it take to put another container terminal on that side of the river and have the double stack trains come to that point? There should not be any clearance issues as these trains would not go through the Howard Street Tunnel coming from the South and West on the former B&O. Maybe this is a crazy idea but to me it should be explored.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

Back in 1995 when CSX thought they were going to acquire Conrail they planned a new connection at Perryville with the Port Road. How they were going to do that, I don't know. If the state is so concerned with the port why not finance this connection and demand that NS be given trackage rights on the Philly sub from Bayview to the Port road using an existing connection. Then again, maybe NS isn't even interested.

There are three tunnels on Maryland segment of the Port Rd. I believe Harrisburg to Baltimore intermodal trains are limited to single containers.

I think EHH doesn't really like intermodal business, specifically double stack trains. Maybe it's not precise enough. Consider what he's doing in North Baltimore, OH. He'd be happy to use an expanded Howard Street tunnel; but he's not going to pay for it. If the Maryland congressmen want it, they (really we taxpayers) can pay for it. Gerry



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/17 05:07 by GPutz.

During his CP tenure, I think EHH liked domestic container business v. International container hauling because domestic profit margins were higher.

Posted from iPhone

Clubcar is talking about the Marley Neck Industrial track. It is crooked, has a 10mph speed limit, and move-able bridge. I do not know if it or the route from Halethorpe can be cleared for stacks. The location at the end next to I695 is where the alumina ore is imported from Brazil and loaded into those ratty looking CH's. Although there is a channel for that but the rest of the water is very shallow and would require a lot of expensive dredging in addition to the cost of building a new port, if there is room for one.

I made drawings of connections at Perryville and other locations way back when USRA was planning the Conrail start-up. Some proposals would drive the environmental folks nuts. The simplest and cheapest way I thought to do it was for Balto bound trains off the Port Road to turn north on 4 track to Principio then build an connector about one mile to north and hook into CSX's Aiken siding. This would be a very long loop, too long for even a two mile train to loop itself. But that possibility is gone now with housing filling the area. I'm sure NS with the experience of clearing the Pokey for stacks would have no trouble with the three short tunnels on the Port Road. The real issue is AMTK's catenary clearances, including thru several bridges. And the NEC is about at capacity.

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Hi EHH, nice to meet you. We support your
> project withdrawal. The tunnel will be perfect
> for vacuum tube based transportation. See you in
> the future."
This will NEVER happen so don't worry, this vacuum tube thing is a "pie in the sky" dream for people who do not understand transportation and what is needed here in the dense population of Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New York.
John

What everyone seems to be missing here is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Private business doesn't want to pay for something, but knows the politicians want to see it done, so play the game. Balk at the project, the dumb politicos grab their spotlight by saying they will get it done using guess who's money. CSX gets their tunnel and we pay for it.

The disappointed mayor should look in the mirror. Think about the extra expense and hassle CSX went through with the D.C. tunnel project--all those meetings, mitigation, outreach, community liasons, ad infinitum. Make construction easier and cheaper if you really want it done. The mayor: "I'm sorry for the inconvenience of the construction, but it's a temporary hassle for a few for the future good of many. Get over it."
Well, I can dream...

JLinDE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clubcar is talking about the Marley Neck
> Industrial track. It is crooked, has a 10mph speed
> limit, and move-able bridge. I do not know if it
> or the route from Halethorpe can be cleared for
> stacks. The location at the end next to I695 is
> where the alumina ore is imported from Brazil and
> loaded into those ratty looking CH's. Although
> there is a channel for that but the rest of the
> water is very shallow and would require a lot of
> expensive dredging in addition to the cost of
> building a new port, if there is room for one.
>
> I made drawings of connections at Perryville and
> other locations way back when USRA was planning
> the Conrail start-up. Some proposals would drive
> the environmental folks nuts. The simplest and
> cheapest way I thought to do it was for Balto
> bound trains off the Port Road to turn north on 4
> track to Principio then build an connector about
> one mile to north and hook into CSX's Aiken
> siding. This would be a very long loop, too long
> for even a two mile train to loop itself. But that
> possibility is gone now with housing filling the
> area. I'm sure NS with the experience of clearing
> the Pokey for stacks would have no trouble with
> the three short tunnels on the Port Road. The real
> issue is AMTK's catenary clearances, including
> thru several bridges. And the NEC is about at
> capacity.


Was there a way to do it without using the NEC?

thebluecomet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What everyone seems to be missing here is one of
> the oldest tricks in the book. Private business
> doesn't want to pay for something, but knows the
> politicians want to see it done, so play the game.
> Balk at the project, the dumb politicos grab their
> spotlight by saying they will get it done using
> guess who's money. CSX gets their tunnel and we
> pay for it.

Good point. Pro sports teams have been getting their way like this for years, threatening to leave town if not given totally free new stadiums/arenas. And if they don't get what they want locally, they will move and get it elsewhere. Wouldn't be a surprise if CSX is playing this game here...

JG

To DubyaM:

Yes there were considered ways to do it without using the NEC. 1. Climbing the hillside from near Port Deposit up to near the East end of Aiken siding then a sharp curve to join CSX there; or, even more expensive, building a curving bridge to join CSX where the 6000ft plus present bridge crosses over a bit of land called Garrett Island. Both of these were what I referred to as driving environmentalist nuts, even years ago. Now, forty years later, there probably is no good way to connect NS's Port Road and CSX at Perryvile, MD in either direction, and both CSX and NS see no advantage since they both serve all the other larger ports on the East Coast.

And yes, CSX could be playing it's 'trump' card by getting out hoping others will convince taxpayers to pay for more or all of it. Has worked before. Also, RR fans may not know this, but there is a neat barge service that can move over 600 boxes on the barge from Norfolk to Balto to Philly and back to Norfolk operated by Columbia Coastal weekly. The barge tow should leave Balto tonight.

That's how Ed Hale got his start, hauling containers on a barge up the Bay to Baltimore. I don't know if the current operation is his or not.

How ironic
Sounds like a derailment inside the tunnel happened just recently.

Posted from iPhone

I do not know either, DubyaM. But the tug and barge left balto last night, overnight reached Philly, unloaded and loaded, (even tho I listen to marine channels did not hear it), and now is southbound for Norfolk opposite Balto moving at 11MPH (not knots, I converted) It will be docked in Norfolk at the first terminal tomorrow afternoon. CSX would be hard pressed to operate a long single stack container train to beat it, presuming they would even want to.