Eastern Railroad Discussion > BNSF to North Baltimore, Oh?

Could another railroad step in and reopen North Baltimore intermodal facility? The rumor going around the railroad is a deal between BNSF and Mesark.

When asked I blow it off as that, but now I wonder could it be done?

Yes I realize a rumor is just that. The question is can it be done?

Scott

Posted from Android

Sd70ACU Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could another railroad step in and reopen North
> Baltimore intermodal facility? The rumor going
> around the railroad is a deal between BNSF and
> Mesark.
>
> When asked I blow it off as that, but now I wonder
> could it be done?
>
> Yes I realize a rumor is just that. The question
> is can it be done?
>
> Scott
>
Who is Mesark?
> Posted from Android

being done in Memphis or somewhere else I read

did he mean/misspell Maersk? huge container line...

Maresk, yes that's correct.

Posted from Android

Maersk is either the largest or near the top of largest marine container shipping lines on EARTH. CSX developed the North Baltimore facility, so they either own it, lease it or a bit of both. It is not closed, just not used the way CSX originally intended it to be. That is Hunter Harrison's decision, right or wrong. But it is still used by CSX, and it could also be used by BNSF, depending on what business terms they agree upon.

This is my post from discussion a few days ago on Trainorders,

--------------------------------------
> Trains Magazine on-line has an interesting
> article/interview with EHH yesterday with a couple
> of nuggets about possible CSX activities:
>
> "...Container sorting has stopped at North
> Baltimore, which now serves as a block-swapping
> facility and is still handling some local
> intermodal containers. Harrison said CSX may have
> a trick up its sleeve for a future use for the
> $175 million terminal and hinted it might involve
> a western railroad looking to extend its reach
> into the East..."
>
>

Interesting, sounds like the BNSF deal from Birmingham into the Atlanta CSX Fairburn GA ramp which has worked very very well. Fairburn GA is an official BNSF intermodal ramp where BNSF pays CSX to operate ramp and move BNSF trains between Birmingham and Atlanta.
This same concept would be good for BNSF trains from the west coast terminating at North Baltimore.
I like this idea if it is BNSF or UP running their trains into N Baltimore.
100% agreed in closing the CSX domestic container sorting operation at N Baltimore. It was a bad idea from the start.
Setting up BNSF or UP there is very good.

gmojim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/17 07:32 by gmojim.

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> being done in Memphis or somewhere else I read
-------------------------------------------------


BNSF has intermodal ramp on CSX at the Atlanta Fairburn GA CSX ramp.

gmojim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/17 07:34 by gmojim.

Interesting to note, the CSX intermodal ramp in Memphis is at the new CN intermodal ramp west of the CN hump yard. CSX pays CN to load and unload the CSX trains at the joint CN-CSX ramp.

gmojim

Intermodal ramps operated for another railroad have been in practice for many years. Santa Fe had an official intermodal ramp in Memphis at Marion AR before the BNSF merger. BN operated Santa Fe trains into Memphis with Santa Fe power and Santa Fe paid BN to operate the ramp. This Marion ramp was just a Santa Fe ramp, with BN intermodal ramp across the river in Memphis.

gmojim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/17 08:00 by gmojim.

gmojim Wrote:
> Interesting, sounds like the BNSF deal from
> Birmingham into the Atlanta CSX Fairburn GA ramp
> which has worked very very well. Fairburn GA is an
> official BNSF intermodal ramp where BNSF pays CSX
> to operate ramp and move BNSF trains between
> Birmingham and Atlanta.
> This same concept would be good for BNSF trains
> from the west coast terminating at North
> Baltimore.
> I like this idea if it is BNSF or UP running their
> trains into N Baltimore.
> 100% agreed in closing the CSX domestic container
> sorting operation at N Baltimore. It was a bad
> idea from the start.
> Setting up BNSF or UP there is very good.
>
> gmojim

gmojim: do you know how CSX ramp efficiency compares with BNSF? For example, out west BNSF gets (very) roughly double the lifts per acre that UP does. So a BNSF 100-acre ramp would do twice the lifts a 100-acre UP ramp would do. I'm basing this on reviews of BNSF vs. UP from about 5 years ago so I don't know if that has changed, but based on UP's volumes it would not appear to be by much if it has. Fairburn is a pretty good sized ramp, and has room to grow. Do you have lift counts for it?

Bruce

StStephen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> gmojim: do you know how CSX ramp efficiency
> compares with BNSF? For example, out west BNSF
> gets (very) roughly double the lifts per acre that
> UP does. So a BNSF 100-acre ramp would do twice
> the lifts a 100-acre UP ramp would do. I'm basing
> this on reviews of BNSF vs. UP from about 5 years
> ago so I don't know if that has changed, but based
> on UP's volumes it would not appear to be by much
> if it has. Fairburn is a pretty good sized ramp,
> and has room to grow. Do you have lift counts for
> it?
>
> Bruce

Bruce, sorry, I do not have lift counts. From what I have heard, BNSF is ok with the ramp operation. BNSF did complain about CSX transit times between Birmingham and Atlanta a few years ago but that issue was fixed.

gmojim

gmojim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BNSF has intermodal ramp on CSX at the Atlanta
> Fairburn GA CSX ramp.
>
> gmojim

What is the routing that these trains use to get to the Fairburn intermadal yard? Where is the interchange between CSX and BNSF? When did BNSF establish this facility?

Northern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gmojim Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BNSF has intermodal ramp on CSX at the Atlanta
> > Fairburn GA CSX ramp.
> >
> > gmojim
>
> What is the routing that these trains use to get
> to the Fairburn intermadal yard? Where is the
> interchange between CSX and BNSF? When did BNSF
> establish this facility?


CSXT receives the trains from BNSF at Birmingham. They then travel the Lineville Subdivision and get on the A&WP at Lagrange, GA to go north to Fairburn. A CSXT crew takes the train from the BNSF yard in Birmingham to Fairburn.

Northern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gmojim Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

>
> What is the routing that these trains use to get
> to the Fairburn intermadal yard? Where is the
> interchange between CSX and BNSF? When did BNSF
> establish this facility?

Been about 10 years. Here is a news release and Trainorders discussion from 2006:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,1259152

gmojim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is my post from discussion a few days ago on
> Trainorders,
>
> --------------------------------------
> > Trains Magazine on-line has an interesting
> > article/interview with EHH yesterday with a
> couple
> > of nuggets about possible CSX activities:
> >
> > "...Container sorting has stopped at North
> > Baltimore, which now serves as a block-swapping
>
> > facility and is still handling some local
> > intermodal containers. Harrison said CSX may
> have
> > a trick up its sleeve for a future use for the
> > $175 million terminal and hinted it might
> involve
> > a western railroad looking to extend its reach
> > into the East..."
> >
> >
>
> Interesting, sounds like the BNSF deal from
> Birmingham into the Atlanta CSX Fairburn GA ramp
> which has worked very very well. Fairburn GA is an
> official BNSF intermodal ramp where BNSF pays CSX
> to operate ramp and move BNSF trains between
> Birmingham and Atlanta.
> This same concept would be good for BNSF trains
> from the west coast terminating at North
> Baltimore.
> I like this idea if it is BNSF or UP running their
> trains into N Baltimore.
> 100% agreed in closing the CSX domestic container
> sorting operation at N Baltimore. It was a bad
> idea from the start.
> Setting up BNSF or UP there is very good.
>
> gmojim

But Atlanta has cargo and NW Ohio doesn't. So N. Baltimore would still have to be a container-sorting or block-swapping operation. I don't think that BNSF would do any better at that than CSX. BNSF just wants to hook and haul pure destination trains as much as possible. They don't even like trying to assemble blocks or sections of trains off of multiple on-dock terminals in the LA Basin, nor doing traditional interchanges in Chicago. That's too much work. (See some of TAW's posts about how interchanges used to be done in Chicago.)

One of the flawed premises of N. Baltimore was the mantra of "bypassing Chicago"--figuratively of course, rather than literally, but we're not supposed to say that. BNSF and UP were supposed to haul dedicated trains to N. Baltimore, and likewise CSX would load pure westbound trains to "hand off" to BNSF and UP in Chicago--the interchange in Chicago being just a matter of swapping crews and power, like with BNSF's Q-LACNYC. (Of course, the Q-LACNYC is not a pure destination train, and it works because NS has always done a bang-up job of splitting up the blocks in Harrisburg and getting them to the various destinations on schedule.)

So BNSF could have been doing dedicated trains to N. Baltimore in the years since it opened. What would induce them to do that now? I don't think it would be a matter of any perceived improved operations, but of BNSF taking a bigger cut of the revenue. But why would CSX want to short-haul themselves?

Bandito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gmojim Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is my post from discussion

a few days ago
> on
> > Trainorders,
> >


> > --------------------------------------
> > > Trains Magazine on-line has an interesting


> > > article/interview with EHH yesterday with a
> > couple


> > > of nuggets about possible CSX activities:
> > >


> > > "...Container sorting has stopped at North
> > > Baltimore, which now serves

as a
> block-swapping
> >
> > > facility and is still handling

some local
> > > intermodal containers. Harrison said CSX may
> > have


> > > a trick up its sleeve for a future use for the
>


> > > $175 million terminal and hinted it might
> > involve


> > > a western railroad looking to extend its reach
>



> > > into the East..."
> > >


> > >
> >
> > Interesting, sounds like the

BNSF deal from
> > Birmingham into the Atlanta CSX Fairburn GA
> ramp


> > which has worked very very well. Fairburn GA is
> an


> > official BNSF intermodal ramp where BNSF pays
> CSX


> > to operate ramp and move BNSF trains between
> > Birmingham and Atlanta.


> > This same concept would be good for BNSF trains
> > from the west coast terminating

at North
> > Baltimore.
> > I like this idea if it is BNSF or UP running


> their
> > trains into N Baltimore.
> > 100% agreed in closing the

CSX domestic
> container
> > sorting operation at N Baltimore. It was a bad


> > idea from the start.
> > Setting up BNSF or UP there is very good.


> >
> > gmojim
>


> But Atlanta has cargo and NW Ohio doesn't. So N.
> Baltimore would still have to be a


> container-sorting or block-swapping operation. I
> don't think that BNSF would do

any better at that
> than CSX. BNSF just wants to hook and haul pure
> destination trains as much as

possible. They don't
> even like trying to assemble blocks or sections of
> trains off of multiple on-dock

terminals in the LA
> Basin, nor doing traditional interchanges in
> Chicago. That's too much work.

(See some of TAW's
> posts about how interchanges used to be done in
> Chicago.)


>
> One of the flawed premises of N. Baltimore was the


> mantra of "bypassing Chicago"--figuratively of
> course, rather than literally, but

we're not
> supposed to say that. BNSF and UP were supposed to
> haul dedicated trains to N.

Baltimore, and
> likewise CSX would load pure westbound trains to
> "hand off" to BNSF and UP in

Chicago--the
> interchange in Chicago being just a matter of
> swapping crews and power, like

with BNSF's
> Q-LACNYC. (Of course, the Q-LACNYC is not a pure
> destination train, and it works

because NS has
> always done a bang-up job of splitting up the
> blocks in Harrisburg and getting

them to the
> various destinations on schedule.)
>


> So BNSF could have been doing dedicated trains to
> N. Baltimore in the years since it

opened. What
> would induce them to do that now? I don't think it
> would be a matter of any

perceived improved
> operations, but of BNSF taking a bigger cut of the
> revenue. But why would CSX

want to short-haul
> themselves?



BNSF did have a dedicated train to North Baltimore. Q172 while operating on CSX. Train was received directly from BNSF at Chicago in a steel wheel interchange.

Also if there is no local demand for ramp service. Why are there two local trucking companies looking for drivers to service the ramp at North Baltimore?

Posted from iPhone

Bandito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> But Atlanta has cargo and NW Ohio doesn't. So N.
> Baltimore would still have to be a
> container-sorting or block-swapping operation. I
> don't think that BNSF would do any better at that
> than CSX. BNSF just wants to hook and haul pure
> destination trains as much as possible. They don't
> even like trying to assemble blocks or sections of
> trains off of multiple on-dock terminals in the LA
> Basin, nor doing traditional interchanges in
> Chicago. That's too much work. (See some of TAW's
> posts about how interchanges used to be done in
> Chicago.)
>
> One of the flawed premises of N. Baltimore was the
> mantra of "bypassing Chicago"--figuratively of
> course, rather than literally, but we're not
> supposed to say that. BNSF and UP were supposed to
> haul dedicated trains to N. Baltimore, and
> likewise CSX would load pure westbound trains to
> "hand off" to BNSF and UP in Chicago--the
> interchange in Chicago being just a matter of
> swapping crews and power, like with BNSF's
> Q-LACNYC. (Of course, the Q-LACNYC is not a pure
> destination train, and it works because NS has
> always done a bang-up job of splitting up the
> blocks in Harrisburg and getting them to the
> various destinations on schedule.)
>
> So BNSF could have been doing dedicated trains to
> N. Baltimore in the years since it opened. What
> would induce them to do that now? I don't think it
> would be a matter of any perceived improved
> operations, but of BNSF taking a bigger cut of the
> revenue. But why would CSX want to short-haul
> themselves?

There would be a lot of cargo from California and Washington state and other western points going to N Baltimore that truckers such as J B Hunt and other companies could take off train there and deliver by truck to Ohio, MI, PA, NY. CSX does not want the short haul from Chicago to N Baltimore.
BNSF would terminate their trains at N Baltimore just like Atlanta. No container sorting, BNSF train could have blocks for destinations further east that could be dropped at N Baltimore yard for CSX, just like the Atlanta operation.

gmojim

gmojim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bandito Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > But Atlanta has cargo and NW Ohio doesn't. So
> N.
> > Baltimore would still have to be a
> > container-sorting or block-swapping operation.
> I
> > don't think that BNSF would do any better at
> that
> > than CSX. BNSF just wants to hook and haul pure
> > destination trains as much as possible. They
> don't
> > even like trying to assemble blocks or sections
> of
> > trains off of multiple on-dock terminals in the
> LA
> > Basin, nor doing traditional interchanges in
> > Chicago. That's too much work. (See some of
> TAW's
> > posts about how interchanges used to be done in
> > Chicago.)
> >
> > One of the flawed premises of N. Baltimore was
> the
> > mantra of "bypassing Chicago"--figuratively of
> > course, rather than literally, but we're not
> > supposed to say that. BNSF and UP were supposed
> to
> > haul dedicated trains to N. Baltimore, and
> > likewise CSX would load pure westbound trains
> to
> > "hand off" to BNSF and UP in Chicago--the
> > interchange in Chicago being just a matter of
> > swapping crews and power, like with BNSF's
> > Q-LACNYC. (Of course, the Q-LACNYC is not a
> pure
> > destination train, and it works because NS has
> > always done a bang-up job of splitting up the
> > blocks in Harrisburg and getting them to the
> > various destinations on schedule.)
> >
> > So BNSF could have been doing dedicated trains
> to
> > N. Baltimore in the years since it opened. What
> > would induce them to do that now? I don't think
> it
> > would be a matter of any perceived improved
> > operations, but of BNSF taking a bigger cut of
> the
> > revenue. But why would CSX want to short-haul
> > themselves?
>
> There would be a lot of cargo from California and
> Washington state and other western points going to
> N Baltimore that truckers such as J B Hunt and
> other companies could take off train there and
> deliver by truck to Ohio, MI, PA, NY. CSX does not
> want the short haul from Chicago to N Baltimore.
> BNSF would terminate their trains at N Baltimore
> just like Atlanta. No container sorting, BNSF
> train could have blocks for destinations further
> east that could be dropped at N Baltimore yard for
> CSX, just like the Atlanta operation.
>
> gmojim

First of all, this terminal is far larger than the Atlanta Terminal.  This is going to make the operational cost far higher than anything in Atlanta.  I doubt CSX is going to lease it to anyone "so they can loose less".  If EHH closes the terminal or re purposes it, he can write down the facility on their taxes.  He cannot if it remains open.

If this facility pulls volume from anyplace other than the local market, CSX is not going to go along with it.  Truck moves to NY or PA?  CSX is not going to cannibalize their business to help BNSF.  People are reading way to much into EHH's "Defensive moves" comment.

If BNSF is going to sort boxes, why didn't they just work with CSX in the first place?  BNSF is going to make a flawed concept work?

As far as hiring drivers.  I have not seen any add but hiring truck drivers in the Find lay, OH is a low risk proposition given the large number of Trucking companies in the area.  Unlike locomotive orders, new truck orders are up 70% year over year.  The trucking business is brisk right now.

NYSWSD70M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> First of all, this terminal is far larger than the
> Atlanta Terminal.  This is going to make the
> operational cost far higher than anything in
> Atlanta.  I doubt CSX is going to lease it to
> anyone "so they can loose less".  If EHH closes
> the terminal or re purposes it, he can write down
> the facility on their taxes.  He cannot if it
> remains open.
>
> If this facility pulls volume from anyplace other
> than the local market, CSX is not going to go
> along with it.  Truck moves to NY or PA?  CSX is
> not going to cannibalize their business to help
> BNSF.  People are reading way to much into EHH's
> "Defensive moves" comment.
>
> If BNSF is going to sort boxes, why didn't they
> just work with CSX in the first place?  BNSF is
> going to make a flawed concept work?
>
> As far as hiring drivers.  I have not seen any
> add but hiring truck drivers in the Find lay, OH
> is a low risk proposition given the large number
> of Trucking companies in the area.  Unlike
> locomotive orders, new truck orders are up 70%
> year over year.  The trucking business is brisk
> right now.

Look at Google Earth, N Baltimore does not look larger. N Baltimore has little on ground parking for containers.

J B Hunt and other customers would run trucks from N Baltimore into Western PA and even Western NY. Currently, many trucks run from Chicago intermodal ramps to Ohio with California and western freight. I ran them every day.

Never said BNSF would sort containers at N Baltimore.

gmojim