Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX Big Layoffs

Does anyone know the reason behind the recernt mass layoffs for CSX and the CSX car shop closing at the Roselake yard in Illinois?

I just read an entry from a few days ago about this very same subject.  It appears that CSX is cutting trains; employees; etc. to make their stock price more attractive to the investors.  Terrible method to increase profits in my humble opinion.  Good, hard working people losing thjeir jobs due to the misguided management of the railroad.  

traindog1 Wrote:
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> I just read an entry from a few days ago about
> this very same subject.  It appears that CSX is
> cutting trains; employees; etc. to make their
> stock price more attractive to the investors. 
> Terrible method to increase profits in my humble
> opinion.  Good, hard working people losing thjeir
> jobs due to the misguided management of the
> railroad.  
I agree 100% to this statement.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

Car shop not the only cuts at Rose Lake. The yardmaster has been abolished and replaced by a trainmaster, there are only 3 conductors and engineers ( 2 regular jobs and a relief job) and 3 car inspectors. There is no more frieght switching done at Rose Lake. CSXI clerks are due to be eliminated as soon as the bugs are worked out of the Xgate intermodal app and scanners.
Michael t Kerner
Collinsville, IL

Posted from Android

Gee, I thought PSR was to make CSX wealthy !

The ghost of Harrison lives- well it is halloween.

Mike Bannon
St Catharines, ON

Park hundreds of older locomotives, and there is less need for service. Newer units need inspections every 184 days, not 92 days.

It's always sad to see jobs become obsolete. I can remember when car tires had to be replaced every 15,000 miles and oil changed every 3,000 miles. That was a long time ago

Posted from Android

The CSX way. Eliminate jobs and more jobs and don’t care if customers get poor service.

Posted from iPhone

farmer Wrote:
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> The CSX way. Eliminate jobs and more jobs and
> don’t care if customers get poor service.
>

NS seems to be trying to catch up.

All the Class Is save KCS suffered traffic declines in 3Q. Rail traffic for all N. American roads down about 5-6% from 2018. So carriers will lengthen trains and reduce forces and locomotives accordingly. This isn't the first time this has happened. And won't be the last.

And what would you suggest that the RRs do? Don't say, "Well, if they had more Sales people, the business would be there", because there is no correlation between the number of Sales people and traffic levels. Read the Trains magazine article about the decline of Merchandise business. The only non-intermodal traffic showing significant growth is petroleum, frac sand, and chemicals.

If not a recession, there surely is a slowdown in the economy going on now. If it isn't made, it can't be shipped. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=pkxc

See also this: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,4889890



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/19 20:09 by JGFuller.

CSX intentionally drives away carload traffic. They only want 150 car trains going 300 miles with a crew.

Posted from iPhone

CSX is doing the right thing regarding lay-offs.  But, they have it backward:  they need to laying off, in droves, upper management people, who have royally screwed up the railroad.  

I remember one time at my terminal for WEST EX LTL trucking, we lost a management type overseeing our terminal.  It took a month to replace him.  But the terminal ran so smoothly for that month with him gone.  We all knew what to do TO SERVICE OUR MANY CUSTOMERS.  It was a great month--lots of "esprit de corps" in doing things right, on our own.

Sp, like I said:  CSX--LAY OFF THE OTHER PEOPLE-- UPPER MANAGEMENT!!

> like I said:  CSX--LAY OFF THE OTHER PEOPLE-- UPPER MANAGEMENT!!

Sounds like you've noticed that lower management and middle management have been shafted already.

Fact 1, companies have to have people at the top. It ain't easy up there, no matter what the folks on the ground might think, and there is a market rate for them just like for every other position in the company. If you think the company would really be better off with half the senior management canned, I think you're mistaken.

Fact 2, even if you did lay off half of senior management, there simply aren't enough of them to make a substantial difference in the finances of the company. Ok, you lay off 30 people (let's say) who are getting an average cash compensation of $300,000 each. (No, the CEO is making more than that, but you'll never get rid of the CEO or reduce what he's paid, so ignore him.) Those 30 people are costing the company a total of about $18 million a year after you include their travel and their benefits and their secretaries and the other expenses they attract. Suppose the average crew wage is $50,000 a year. Suppose further that each of them actually costs the company $70,000 by the time you factor in their benefits. So, in exchange for the 30 people you let go at the top, you create 257 jobs across the entire CSX system. Last I heard, CSX employs about 20,000 people, so your intiative protects just 1% of the company's workforce. Well, the company's workforce will grow or shrink a lot more than 1% based on factors that you can't control, like the economy. 

Bottom line, you can vent your emotions at upper management if you wish, but shafting them won't get you anywhere.   



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/19 04:59 by ctillnc.

mkerner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Car shop not the only cuts at Rose Lake. The
> yardmaster has been abolished and replaced by a
> trainmaster, there are only 3 conductors and
> engineers ( 2 regular jobs and a relief job) and 3
> car inspectors. There is no more freight switching
> done at Rose Lake. CSXI clerks are due to be
> eliminated as soon as the bugs are worked out of
> the Xgate intermodal app and scanners.
> Michael t Kerner
> Collinsville, IL
>
> Posted from Android

Thanks for this info, Mike. Aside from any purported CSX service quality issues, I wonder how much of this was caused simply by a change in the traffic patterns flowing through St. Louis?

Mike, wasn't Rose Lake pretty much only an intermodal terminal for CSX (even as it mostly was for Conrail during my St. Louis days in the past), with the manifest traffic mostly originating / terminating at one of the two area hump yards, TRRA's Madison Yard or A&S' Gateway Yard, or moving past any yarding through a run-through arrangement? If so, then how much do these changes represent a loss of intermodal traffic by CSX at St. Louis? Or has that intermodal traffic moved to being ramped somewhere else in the area? Or is now bypassing St. Louis completely to make the east-west connection at Chicago, Memphis or via KCS down south?

Back in my Conrail days in the past, Rose Lake originated / terminated a lot of intermodal traffic, some of it very hot - the former MAIL train fleet that Conrail had. But as I have returned to St. Louis from time to time to visit family and friends and done a little railfanning, it has just seemed to me that the intermodal traffic ramped at Rose Lake has gradually shrunk. I have guessed and surmised through conversations with friends and some railroad acquaintances that some was due to truck competition and general loss of traffic (even before CSX may have reduced service standards), some was due to a declining traffic base in the St. Louis area, and some was due simply to routing of that traffic via other railroad service lanes, particularly Chicago.

My impression is that the St. Louis gateway traffic has suffered in general in recent years, both for intermodal and manifest traffic, due to more and more carrier concentration of traffic into other service lanes, particularly via Chicago. There has been comment to that effect in the past here on TO, to the point that carriers want every last dime on the east-west rate division that they can get via Chicago instead of St. Louis, and they want to concentrate traffic and resources and asset allocation as much as possible into certain service lanes, such as via Chicago and Memphis instead of St. Louis. In the long ago past, St. Louis could trade a bit on greater speed as compared to Chicago congestion, but that seems also to have faded as certain corridors for traffic have been developed and upgraded, and projects such as CREATE has helped to smooth traffic flows through Chicago.

Just a few thoughts for discussion and response. Thanks in advance for any info anyone may have to offer.

MC

Yes, I'm afraid St. Louis is one of those rust belt cities that lost its industrial base (3 auto plants; Monsanto Chem. Ralston Purina -- all gone)

It is no longer an airline hub-city, and has lost a lot of non-stop service because of this..

From what I hear, the crime rate is so bad, their Metrolink light rail system is in peril.

so, maybe Rose Lake yard's decline is just a reflection of St. Louis's decline. (the City's population is half what it once was).

 

farmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The CSX way. Eliminate jobs and more jobs and
> don’t care if customers get poor service.
>

Not to worry. They'll go away.

TAW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/19 08:19 by TAW.

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> farmer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The CSX way. Eliminate jobs and more jobs and
> > don’t care if customers get poor service.
> >
>
> Not to worry. They'll go away.
>
> TAW


Problem is go where? The trucking industry isn't any better these days.

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CSX intentionally drives away carload traffic.
> They only want 150 car trains going 300 miles with
> a crew.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Why do people think this is a new phenomenon? Conrail was real good at "slash and burn" in the 80's.

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

ALCO630 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MEKoch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CSX intentionally drives away carload traffic.
> > They only want 150 car trains going 300 miles
> with
> > a crew.
> >
> > Posted from iPhone
>
> Why do people think this is a new phenomenon?
> Conrail was real good at "slash and burn" in the
> 80's.
>
> Posted from Android

Didn't the formation of Conrail require a "bailout" of the Railroad Retirement Fund?  Huge numbers of people lost their jobs, entire lines were sold or ripped out, far fewer people were contributing to the retirement fund.

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I'm afraid St. Louis is one of those rust
> belt cities that lost its industrial base (3 auto
> plants; Monsanto Chem. Ralston Purina -- all
> gone)
>
> It is no longer an airline hub-city, and has lost
> a lot of non-stop service because of this..
>
> From what I hear, the crime rate is so bad, their
> Metrolink light rail system is in peril.
>
> so, maybe Rose Lake yard's decline is just a
> reflection of St. Louis's decline. (the City's
> population is half what it once was).

Sorry, but this doesn't really answer the question. My question was about traffic patterns, specifically about interchange in recent years between western carriers (UP, BNSF) and eastern carriers (in this case, particularly CSX), and how that affected Rose Lake Yard in the present era, and the current cutbacks there specifically. Some of that traffic did indeed originate in St. Louis and is reduced to some extent, but for the cases you mention, it's all 10-plus years ago. As part of a long-term trend that now culminates in a cumulative reduction that's enough, along with other more recent traffic shits, to force the reductions at Rose Lake, then yes, there may be an effect. But as recent events which affect Rose Lake, no. Even if CSX did a lot of manifest traffic switching and origination there in recent years since I moved away, which Conrail did not. For Conrail, it was very heavily an intermodal facility.

Three auto assembly plants did indeed close over the years, but it's been quite some years back for all of them: two side-by-side Chrysler plants at Fenton, southwest of St. Louis, and a Ford plant at Hazelwood, northwest of the city. The Fenton plants were switched by BN (ex-Frisco), with transfer runs with automotive traffic from the former Frisco Lindenwood Yard to various other carriers. I believe that there was a transfer to Conrail at Rose Lake in the past that went into an eastward train or two originating at Rose Lake. Do I recall that there was a relatively hot Conrail intermodal out of Rose Lake that also had an automotive block (mainly autoracks), instead of originating the automotive traffic at A&S Gateway Yard or TRRA's Madison Yard? I could be wrong about that, and that traffic could have gone to the A&S Gateway Yard (as for CR trains ASIN / INAS for Avon Yard at Indy and ASPI / PIAS for Pittsburgh / Conway Yard, which both regularly had substantial automotive traffic blocks), as did TRIN / INTR for TRRA's Madison Yard. And that would be in the Conrail era, long before CSX took over at Rose Lake. Traffic from Ford Hazelwood going east could have the same flows via transfers from the ex-Wabash N&W / NS. But again, that's all 10-plus years ago, pre-CSX. Contributing to a long-term trend that finally brought about a Rose Lake reduction, yes, the auto assembly plants may have had an effect. But as a recent action affecting Rose Lake, no.

Other points you've made: one former Monsanto plant, the company's original Queeny Plant, on the riverfront south of downtown St. Louis, is indeed gone. But that traffic disappeared many years ago, long before CSX took over at Rose Lake. Two other former Monsanto plants, the Carondelet plant in south St. Louis, and the Krummrich Plant in Sauget, Ill. still operate under other companies (Krummrich, Eastman Chemical, and Carondelet, ICL), and still ship by rail (mainly tank and covered hopper cars). Probably some reduction form the past (some units at Krummrich were gradually shut down over the years, there's more truck shipment, and product mixes at both plants have changed). But traffic from those plants never was routed via Rose Lake, but via A&S Gateway Yard or TRRA's Madison Yard, if eastbound. The former Ralston-Purina (now Nestle) mill on the south end of downtown, Ralston's original facility, stopped producing there decades ago, and the facility became entirely a headquarters office complex, again long before the present cutbacks by CSX at Rose Lake. So, really very little or no effect on Rose Lake today or in recent years going back several decades.

That St. Louis is no longer a major airline hub has nothing to do with rail traffic patterns. Carl Icahn mercilessly gutted TWA many years ago (one of the most contemptible actions ever by one of the very worst Wall Street raiders, hated to this day in St. Louis -- he played around with ACF too and mortgaged the place down to the pencils in desk drawers). TWA was challenged in those days, but it still held important international routes that Icahn sold off and cashed out -- right on the cusp of tremendous growth in international traffic and revenue.  After it was merged into American Airlines, that airline changed its mind about having a third major hub in the Midwest along with Chicago and Dallas-Fort Worth, and further reduced service and shut down the hub. To which Southwest promptly responded and increased traffic. Not to full hub status, but still a pretty strong service level, albeit by Southwest's limited hubbing and point-to-point service model.

Crime in some areas of the central city is very bad, as in other major cities. But, as to MetroLink, I have family members and friends who use it regularly to and from downtown St. Louis, including in the evening hours. No problems. As to the population of the central city,. yes, less than half of what it once was (the peak was just after WWII, when it was approaching one million, and was the 8th largest city in the country before the postwar era of large-scale suburbanization began). But the metro area overall has grown and is now about 2.85 million. In the Conrail / PC years it was about 2.3 million. And with that economic activity overall has been pretty good. In recent years, however, population growth has slowed notably, per a St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank study, which suggests that weaker economic growth is leading to population outflow as compared to other similar sized metro areas: https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synopses/2019/05/31/why-is-the-st-louis-metro-area-population-growing-so-slowly.
But that growth takes in many industries and factors, and not just industries with traffic which is susceptible to rail transport.

Whenever I see generalizations made about so-called rust-belt cities in the Upper Midwest, I look for supporting evidence. And if it's not there, then I test the assertions with evidence that I can find, supplemented by personal experience, if possible. Why? Because I've lived most of my life in or on the edges of the so-called rust belt, and time and again I have found generalizations about it to be wanting, often significantly. There are serious challenges, and yes these areas have undergone a great deal of change socially and economically. But I have seen many cases where social and economic factors are much stronger and more vibrant than the generalizations would have you believe. I know St. Louis very well, having grown up there and living and working there most of my life. And I know that there is more economic and social strength there than many would believe. You may just have to look a little harder for it -- it isn't as obvious as it might have been in the past. And particularly, you have to make sure that when an area of concern arises, like the reductions by CSX at Rose Lake, that you are identifying the correct sources and results, inputs and outputs, for the situation. I think the question about reductions by CSX at Rose Lake relative to overall east-west traffic patterns, and St. Louis' position in them, is still open.

MC
Muskegon, Michigan