Eastern Railroad Discussion > Former NKP signals falling fast...

In what seems to be a trend here in Ohio, NS is actively replacing predecessor roads signals. I have heard reports that the former N&W position light signals are falling at an advanced rate as well.

A trip out yesterday (Sunday), revealed signal crews laying new cable for the signals at the former NKP/DT&I (now NS/I&O) diamond in Leipsic, Ohio. Here are three images...


1) Westbound NS train passes the eastward signal. Careful observers will notice something out of sorts in this image.


2) An I&O southbound (train number 400) shoves north to couple up to his train, receiving first a "restricted proceed" (first time I have seen this indication here), then shoving past to couple back onto his train.

CG Tower

---

---

---

Someone at wherever the station signs are made didn't spell-check (but they did follow the "I" before "E" rule)....

As for the signals, I wonder if the NS side got 'new' signals when the Townwood running track was shortened back to east of the B&O diamonds, or not. Any evidence of the DT&I side getting signal work as well, or is it confined to the N&W side?

Hi Mike:

Bing! We have a winner...Leipsic is spelled incorrectly (at least for NW Ohio).

I am assuming the DT&I side will get work as well as there are orange survey flags visible along the right of way both north and south of the diamond. If you look at the third photo, you'll see the said flags.

Eric

MSchwiebert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone at wherever the station signs are made
> didn't spell-check (but they did follow the "I"
> before "E" rule)....
>
> As for the signals, I wonder if the NS side got
> 'new' signals when the Townwood running track was
> shortened back to east of the B&O diamonds, or
> not. Any evidence of the DT&I side getting signal
> work as well, or is it confined to the N&W side?

CGTower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In what seems to be a trend here in Ohio, NS is
> actively replacing predecessor roads signals. I
> have heard reports that the former N&W position
> light signals are falling at an advanced rate as
> well.
>
>
>
> CG Tower


Very true. Many of the position-light interlockers south (timetable east) of Columbus are gone. Now many of the ABS position-lights are in the process of being replaced. Part of this has been due to changes at Rickenbacker IM and at Waverly. At first it was almost exclusively interlocking signals and distants. Now they seem to be extending some block lengths to eliminate a few signal locations.

Jeff

One notable exception (at least as of last Fall) was around Chillicothe...which still had most of it's PL's at that time in October. Here is said example at Southern Avenue.

Eric at CG Tower

Gateway97 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CGTower Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In what seems to be a trend here in Ohio, NS is
> > actively replacing predecessor roads signals. I
> > have heard reports that the former N&W position
> > light signals are falling at an advanced rate
> as
> > well.
> >
> >
> >
> > CG Tower
>
>
> Very true. Many of the position-light interlockers
> south (timetable east) of Columbus are gone. Now
> many of the ABS position-lights are in the process
> of being replaced. Part of this has been due to
> changes at Rickenbacker IM and at Waverly. At
> first it was almost exclusively interlocking
> signals and distants. Now they seem to be
> extending some block lengths to eliminate a few
> signal locations.
>
> Jeff

---

What you're calling the Townwood Running Track, Mike, was once the Yellow Creek Running Track, until the passing track was taken out west of the B&O. From Leipsic Junction west, although the track once continued to out past West Leipsic, it was known as Leipsic Siding. Today, it's actually Number Two main from Townwood to Leipsic Junction.

Chilli is one of the last strongholds! Get 'em while you can. They have replaced a few over the years, such as the E/B signal at DO and the E/B signals at Eastern Ave. Also the distant signals between Renick and Lunbeck.Most are SR-style but the new ones at Eastern Ave. are more UP-style. That seems to be the trend now. Some of the position lights have even been painted recently, which we hope means they have been spared for awhile. Although the Eastern Woodlands tribes had a tradition of painting your face black before they took you out for good! Coincidence? ;-)



CGTower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One notable exception (at least as of last Fall)
> was around Chillicothe...which still had most of
> it's PL's at that time in October. Here is said
> example at Southern Avenue.
>
> Eric at CG Tower
>
> Gateway97 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CGTower Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > In what seems to be a trend here in Ohio, NS
> is
> > > actively replacing predecessor roads signals.
> I
> > > have heard reports that the former N&W
> position
> > > light signals are falling at an advanced rate
> > as
> > > well.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CG Tower
> >
> >
> > Very true. Many of the position-light
> interlockers
> > south (timetable east) of Columbus are gone.
> Now
> > many of the ABS position-lights are in the
> process
> > of being replaced. Part of this has been due to
> > changes at Rickenbacker IM and at Waverly. At
> > first it was almost exclusively interlocking
> > signals and distants. Now they seem to be
> > extending some block lengths to eliminate a few
> > signal locations.
> >
> > Jeff

>CG Tower wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------
>2) An I&O southbound (train number 400) shoves north to couple up to his train, receiving first >a "restricted proceed" (first time I have seen this indication here), then shoving past to couple >back onto his train.

>CG Tower

This feature is a carryover from the DT&I/GT days when there was a small collection of tracks for servicing customers(or yard, though that is a glorification)south of the interlocking. Trains setting off and picking up cars could cut off north of the diamond and then pick up a restricted to return to the train either by using a key up reclear on the box at SR 613, or by backing onto the reclear at the signal(the sign for the reclear is adjacent to the NB signal).

Makes sense, Did the Leipsic siding come out with the automation of the DT&I/N&W crossing, or was this done seperately?

Also, is the new trackage (to give the I&O access to the Ethanol plant) connected to the I&O yet? Does the NS get access to the new track near the I&O diamond or near the CSX?

lew Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What you're calling the Townwood Running Track,
> Mike, was once the Yellow Creek Running Track,
> until the passing track was taken out west of the
> B&O. From Leipsic Junction west, although the
> track once continued to out past West Leipsic, it
> was known as Leipsic Siding. Today, it's actually
> Number Two main from Townwood to Leipsic Junction.

The signals at the west end of Leipsic siding were removed on 1/25/84. If anyone has a picture of these, I'd sure like to see it! From a 765 video I have determined that Leipsic siding was entered off the main at XN Tower (B&O) through a crossover, so that the track across the B&O became a "pocket" track. The westbound signals at KN Tower (DT&I) were indeed replaced when the Leipsic siding was removed. Originally there was a bracket-mast signal there, which was at first modified, then replaced with the current one. The original conception of the Yellow Creek Running Track by the NKP was a place for westbounds to meet eastbounds, the eastbound fleet of meat express trains being the hottest trains on the RR. Thus, there were bracket mast signals for westbound, and dwarf signals eastbound at the diamonds, the logic being that normally eastbounds would hold the main here.

Makes sense TM3, at one time the DT&I/NKP interchange was quite healthy. Also at one time there was a power operated derail at this location, along with a connection tracks both on the north and south sides of the NKP main to serve the "yard" so to speak. I have a diagram for this back at the house.

Obviously the re-clear function still works as after the crew had finished switching Patrick Products they shoved back north to that "Reclear" location and the signal came in. Kinda cool...

Do you know if the DT&I side will get new signals from NS? It appeared that signal work was imminent as NS had dropped new wire east and west of the diamond.

Eric at CG Tower

trainmaster3 Wrote:

> This feature is a carryover from the DT&I/GT days
> when there was a small collection of tracks for
> servicing customers(or yard, though that is a
> glorification)south of the interlocking. Trains
> setting off and picking up cars could cut off
> north of the diamond and then pick up a restricted
> to return to the train either by using a key up
> reclear on the box at SR 613, or by backing onto
> the reclear at the signal(the sign for the reclear
> is adjacent to the NB signal).

MSchwiebert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Makes sense, Did the Leipsic siding come out with
> the automation of the DT&I/N&W crossing, or was
> this done seperately?
>
> Also, is the new trackage (to give the I&O access
> to the Ethanol plant) connected to the I&O yet?
> Does the NS get access to the new track near the
> I&O diamond or near the CSX?
>

As of a month ago, the track toward the I&O ended short of the first road crossing west of the NS/CSX diamond. NS gets to the new ethanol plant via a switch just west of the diamond. The eastbound home signal for the diamond at Leipsic Junction was moved eastward because the switch had been inside the interlocking limits. By moving the signal, the switch is now just west of the interlocking limits.

There was grading done up by the I&O for the connection, very much in the location where the former transfer switch once came off the DT&I.

The ethanol lead crosses SR 65 Mike, then stops...I noticed on Sunday that it appears the property that the lead will need to pass over has been purchased as they were preparing to move the mobile home that was there. Nothing else has been done on the I&O end that I can tell...a little grading and fill work needs to happen to get the lead from it's current location to the location of the old running track, which is where I assume it will go, unless they plan to build up the right of way along the north side of the NKP.

Here is the shot of the new signal at the CSX diamond, you can see the connection to the ethanol plant just ahead of it. Sorry it's a bit out of kilter, this was from shot with a zoom lens from my car as we crossed the NS tracks.

Eric at CG Tower




lew Wrote:

>
> As of a month ago, the track toward the I&O ended
> short of the first road crossing west of the
> NS/CSX diamond. NS gets to the new ethanol plant
> via a switch just west of the diamond. The
> eastbound home signal for the diamond at Leipsic
> Junction was moved eastward because the switch had
> been inside the interlocking limits. By moving
> the signal, the switch is now just west of the
> interlocking limits.
>
> There was grading done up by the I&O for the
> connection, very much in the location where the
> former transfer switch once came off the DT&I.

---

So when a train is coming east on the NKP to work the plant, how do they avoid getting the diamond signal lined for their movement before diverging off into the plant?

Surely it would hold up CSX needlessly and have to time out.

CSX would do the same thing to NS when they work the plant from the south end (they have two connections into the facility).

I believe the NS signals are wired only to request the diamond only if the NS train is line eastward into the second track or the main, if they are not, I do not think the signal comes in...this is how it works on the other side of the diamond when trains work Protec.

CG Tower




WLE-Foam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So when a train is coming east on the NKP to work
> the plant, how do they avoid getting the diamond
> signal lined for their movement before diverging
> off into the plant?
>
> Surely it would hold up CSX needlessly and have to
> time out.

NS will try and work the plant going west, if they work it going east, it presents problems heading in, I don't know if they can get around their cut within the confines of the facility or not. Working it west with a local job, they can shove in with their entire train most of the time.

The NS signals across the I&O only line if the dispatcher requests them. It doesn't matter where the NS train is. At the CSX diamond, the dispatcher can request them, but they will only line when the train hits the approach circuit. BIG difference.

Excellent information...thanks! Learn something new every day...I appreciate the insight.

Eric at CG Tower

halfmoonharold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The NS signals across the I&O only line if the
> dispatcher requests them. It doesn't matter where
> the NS train is. At the CSX diamond, the
> dispatcher can request them, but they will only
> line when the train hits the approach circuit. BIG
> difference.

Is there any linkage between the I&O crossing and the CSX one for NS? In other words, if an eastbound NS is lined across the I&O does that give any precedence to a request for the CSX crossing?

I seem to remember the occasional occurance where all 3 railroads would tie each other up. For example a Southbound CSX would be waiting at XN(and had not cleared the NS) for a northbound I&O (that had not cleared the CSX), who in turn was waiting for an eastbound NS that had pulled across the I&O expecting to get a favorable signal at the CSX - and did not because the CSX hadn't cleared. Granted it didn't happen often, but I figured if two of the 3 interlockers would be linked together where the same carrier would have precedence it would eliminate those occurances.

halfmoonharold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The NS signals across the I&O only line if the
> dispatcher requests them. It doesn't matter where
> the NS train is. At the CSX diamond, the
> dispatcher can request them, but they will only
> line when the train hits the approach circuit. BIG
> difference.

Mike:

Yes, this has happened before. The scenario that I remember seeing (last summer to be exact), were two southbound CSX trains lined down the main at Leipsic Jct, a northbound I&O train waiting to go north (but on the approach to the NKP diamonds) and an NS eastbound. It wasn't so much a train fouling each other, but more of the whole plant locking up...the dispatcher avoided this by running the second CSX main up the siding.

It was a bit tense for a few moments.

Eric at CG Tower


MSchwiebert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there any linkage between the I&O crossing and
> the CSX one for NS? In other words, if an
> eastbound NS is lined across the I&O does that
> give any precedence to a request for the CSX
> crossing?
>
> I seem to remember the occasional occurance where
> all 3 railroads would tie each other up. For
> example a Southbound CSX would be waiting at
> XN(and had not cleared the NS) for a northbound
> I&O (that had not cleared the CSX), who in turn
> was waiting for an eastbound NS that had pulled
> across the I&O expecting to get a favorable signal
> at the CSX - and did not because the CSX hadn't
> cleared. Granted it didn't happen often, but I
> figured if two of the 3 interlockers would be
> linked together where the same carrier would have
> precedence it would eliminate those occurances.
>
> halfmoonharold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The NS signals across the I&O only line if the
> > dispatcher requests them. It doesn't matter
> where
> > the NS train is. At the CSX diamond, the
> > dispatcher can request them, but they will only
> > line when the train hits the approach circuit.
> BIG
> > difference.