Eastern Railroad Discussion > Southern Tier

Wherever the info came from (I don't know), the info is now out in the public and we can talk about it.
- Would the state of New York support Metro North in purchasing track from Suffern to Port Jervis?
- Would the state of New York support Metro North in purchasing track from Port Jervis to Binghamton?
- Would NS keep any freight rights to operate in either or both segments? If not, could Metro North lease freight rights to a shortline or Susquehanna?
- How much freight is generated between Suffern and Port Jervis?
- How much freight is generated between Port Jervis & Binghamton?
- How much passenger traffic could be generated west of Port Jervis? Weekend operations to the Catskills?

My observation of the line west of Port Jervis did not reveal many on-line freight opportunities. Also west of Port Jervis the line is single track, with a few passing sidings (poor man's CTC). Yes, the grade west of Deposit has a bit of double track.

Can we discuss this topic, and not some silly side issues?

If it were to happen, NS would retain trackage rights as they already have an agreement with NJT east of Suffern. Not sure what Metro-North would gain by owning the line west of Port Jervis, as there is far too much trackwork to make it a viable commuter option from Binghamton. The line isn't in horrible shape, but M-N wouldn't be able to run commutes at an average of 65 per to compete with 17(future I-86). Besides I don't think there is a huge commuter pool to take off of 17, but that's not to say there isn't. I just haven't thought of Binghamton as a place for NYC/NJ metro area workers to commute from.

The freight traffic on this section of the railroad is mostly Binghamton and Corning-area traffic heading into and out of NYC/NJ metro area. An over-the-road local could cover ops on this section, but I don't see any gain in taking 46G/47G off the former Erie from Waverly through Binghamton, PJ and into the NY/NJ metro area. They are basically already glorified over-the-road locals running the length of the Tier, and by moving them and adding a different pair of trains east of Binghamton would only add the amount of movements. I just don't see it happening. Think of this, if the freights were to be rerouted over this proposed Lehigh Line-R&N routing to Mehoopany and up to Waverly, the following obstacles would be in the way:

Single-track bottleneck of Lehigh Line west of Manville
Negotiating through the terminal congestion of Bethlehem and Allentown yards
Reading and Northern trackage from Penn Haven/M&H Junction to just north of Vosburg tunnel(south of Mehoopany and Sayre)
Significant addition of blocking time at Gang Mills to account for Binghamton traffic, particularly D&H interchange stuff

With the R&N, they'd have to qualify crews and come to a trackage rights agreement to run from Penn Haven to Vosburg. Either that, or they could create a haulage agreement with R&N to handle the traffic with R&N crews. The track north of Pittston is in particularly rough shape, or at least it was in 1998. This reroute could happen, but it's been a long-discussed rumor since before the Conrail split occurred. I'm sure R&N would love the extra money generated from this, but I don't see NS gaining much by this reroute. I could be wrong, but I think it would be very silly for NS to do this.

Just my two common sense

Brian

My reading of the reports is that NS trains would be diverted off the Tier only east of Binghamton, and would be operated over the D&H from Bingo to Dupont (not sure whose crews) rather than via Vosburg, so the Pittston-Mehoopany-Waverly issues are irrelevant.

As noted above, on-line business between Port Jervis and Binghamton is minimal -- the paper plant in Deposit, a lumberyard or two, and the Stourbridge Line interchange at Lackawaxen are all that spring to mind. Recall that for a while before the merger, Conrail was running just a three-roundtrips-a-week local between PJ and Bingo.

All this being said, I can't imagine Metro-North finding much of this line useful for commuter train service. There has been talk about running an Amtrak train or two between New Jersey and Buffalo via Binghamton and Elmira, but the state of New York wouldn't need to own the track to do that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but maybe their looking at this as being a second way to Scranton, PA. I go back to Scranton several times a year and know they are to start commuter trains between Scranton/Wilkes Berry to New York within a couple of years utiliziung the former DL&W line? Instead of that maybe Metro North thinks this could be a cheaper and faster way to start that service. By faster & cheaper I mean with the condition of the rail line not actually comparing traveling times. Just thinking of the route I would assume this to be to long a route to compete with any other form of travel. The car trip between Scranton & New York is 2 1/2 hours. The old DL&W pretty much paralell's the expressway into New York City making it more viable to compete with cars, in June the trip from NYC took me 4 hours never getting above 40 MPH untill the PA state border. If anyone can provide me with more info on this commuter project I would greatly appreciate it.

The ex-Erie via Port Jervis and Binghamton would not be a time competitive passenger route (commuter or otherwise) from Scranton to NYC. It's simply too roundabout.

MN has been pursuing SF-PO for a long time; I understand a deal was close before the NS/CSX split of Conrail.

NS Freight rights would be a negotiated issue; NS has perpetual rights on NJT east of SF. A reasonable expectation would be for NS to retain freight rights.

There are 3 locals based out of Suffern, but 99% of their work is to the east in NJ. There are 2 locals based out of Campbell Hall, which primarily work at Harriman, the Hudson Secondary, around Campbell Hall, and the Middletown Industrial.

Few customers between PO and BD; I believe a customer in Narrowsburg, Stourbridge RR interchange at Lackawaxen, one at Callicoon, one in Deposit.

Population is thin between Middletown and Port Jervis, but people west of there think of Port as "the city", so draw your conclusions as to viability of passenger service. The Catskills are north of Port Jervis, not along the RR.

Again, the current turn of events are just the 101st rumor to hit the line in the last year and a half. The only thing to come true was the reroute of 25K, which interestingly, was reported 5 weeks ago on one of the egroups lists, well before a copyrighted source claimed to break the story a week ago.

ajt said, in part:

"Few customers between PO and BD; I believe a customer in Narrowsburg, Stourbridge RR interchange at Lackawaxen, one at Callicoon, one in Deposit. "

Active customers CP BD to Port Jervis (CP SPARROWS)

Narrowsburg (2)- e/b Narrowsburg Feed; w/b Narrowsburg Lumber
Lackawaxen (1)- Stourbridge RR
Callicoon (0)
Deposit (2) e/b Norboard fibreboard plant; w/b Team Track (pulpwood)
Binghamton (Industrial Park) (2) e/b American Pipe, Frito-Lay.

ajt wrote:
>
> The only thing to
> come true was the reroute of 25K, which interestingly, was
> reported 5 weeks ago on one of the egroups lists, well before a
> copyrighted source claimed to break the story a week ago.

It was also reported by myself in this very forum several weeks ago. The employees who were assigned to the 25K pool hadn't even caught wind of it (and doubted the validity of my statements) when I mentioned NS supervision's plans, and we all see what happened there.

Trust me on this, NS had surveyors on the property in Croxton a couple weeks ago, looking at ways for more efficient interchange of traffic with NYSW. NS will retain trackage rights, but expect an established freight operator to pick up the contract for moving freight on the portion of the Tier that NS would like to rid itself of...

Can anybody tell me if there is/was any business in PO proper? Was there ever much industry there in the past, beyond the activity of the yard itself? Or was the yard "it"?

Business at Port...

Some older picures of the yard show several spurs leading off on the south side of the yard to warehouses and small factories. Vaguely, I think there was a brass lamp maker and a furniture assembler adjacent to what's now the mostly empty team track area. And, I think there was at least one factory up on the the NYO&W lead operated by Erie.

On the Delaware Division...

Isn't there a fertilizer ag supplies propane place on the bend in Narrowsburg? I seem to recall seeing a few tank cars there, or did that go over to trucks (too)?


I remember speaking with a fellow who consulted for shortlines about the time of the NS-CSX dust up over CR. He was saying both railroads were falling over themselves telling Albany about all the economic development people they'd hire, how they'd have jobs and business flowing down the tier. That was then, this nis now, I guesss.

The only active customer I'm aware of in Port Jervis is a utility which occasionally receives flats or gons of "telephone" poles.

...so are the 47G& 48G gonna be rerouted to the Lehigh Line, and when, or simply combined with the 18/19G, 108, etc. Gonna get an assigned crew, or simply run extra, Coneheads or NJ newhires? Does this kill the proposed intermodal yard near Maybrook? Heard rumors that they are gonna add a train out of Metuchen, is it gonna go Morrisville or transfer to Oak Island, Hammies or NJ newhires? NJ gonna lose 21A pool? And to heck with improving the interchange with SusieQ, when they gonna upgrade Croxton to handle more intermodal traffic to NJ? Hard to grow the North/South traffic when you spend half the time waiting to get into the terminal. Gonna raise the speed limits Hagerstown-Croxton, I hear they are testing to go to 70mph south of Manassas. Of course, doesn't help when they rebuild Town interlocking but keep trains crawling at 20mph max all through Hagerstown. When the 261 get turned on, when does Capital rebuild get done? When on everything above.

Lotta questions, but I hear that you know the real Mr. Ears. Remember, rails are thicker than blood.

diddle_e._squat wrote:
>

<snipped questions>

Hey Diddle E,

Check your T.O. email, I answered you privately...

BTW Diddle E, that's an interesting reference to the "Jersey Newhires."

Take a look at the NS engineer's roster when you get a chance. Most of the guys awarded the new pools in Harrisburg are junior to all but one of the engineers in NJ. Currently, I am the junior man on a road assignment out of NJ (not counting the extra list), but can hold 7 of the new pools in Harrisburg.

Better hope that the guys in NJ can make their mortgage payments with the shift in work, as it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where they'll migrate to, even if it means bumping to Abrams or Allentown and letting the seniority flow downhill to Harrisburg...

I did not get to see the thread with the copyright article that was deleted, but I have some info to share.

The laws creating the MTA do not permit operation beyond Orange County. If NS were to sell the Tier from Port Jervis it would have to sell to New York State (probably NYSDOT). I doubt the Pennsylvania portions could be sold to NY.

I recently drove along 17 on the way to/from Ithaca during the middle of the week during day and night. From Liberty to Deposit I encountered next to no traffic(like maybe 100 vehicles per hour). I travelled at 55 so everyone would pass me to get a good impression of traffic volume . Eastbound at night I encountered ONE truck. Both ways saw only ONE bus. Only train I saw (keep in mind that ROW not visible at all times) was a local parked in downtown Deposit. I would not like to see this line disappear but no RR seems to value the property even for railbanking. And it looks like the truckers don't value NY17.

Let me be quoted as saying, NS is NOT selling the Southern tier and the reports that it will be abandoned are completely false. Quite the opposite. The fact that they havent even sold the SF-Sparrowbush portion to MTA says a lot about their intentions.. and they dont even dispatch it. Metro North Railroad has approached them several times about purchasing the railroad, but they have not sold it yet because MTA wanted to limit the amount of trains NS could run. If they did sell it, however, it would also not be the death of the line as the freight line frequently will sell the line to the passenger for them to make improvements.

If NS had no intentions of using the tier, they would have sold it long ago, because of the way they are being taxed on it. The opposite is happening. NS is making improvements on the line at a good rate.

I dont know if anyone realizes the potential of growth that is possible into and out of the New York area. Conrail did not choose to grow, so they did not as other railroads around them were doing. The intermodal market in this region is HUGE and Conrail only had a small portion of it. Truckers have the biggest part of the market in this region but could lose their edge if the railroads can make their move. The truckers biggest advantage is time. New laws requiring more amounts of rest for the drivers, however, have given them problems. If railroads can quicken their intermodal shipments, they could equal this and take advantage of their largest advantage, cost.

Its not just an East-West market. Since the removal of the Q195 and Q196, NS and CSX have a combined 1 train each way between New York and Atlanta. There could easily be 10 times that many as railroads account for approximately 2% of the market into these two regions. If they can play their cards right, NS can start many North South trains. All of these trains must be run through SAA, out the Lehigh Line and Reading Line all the way to Harrisburgh. This will cause GREAT congestion both in SAA and in the yards of Pennsylvania. All of these regions are congested with the current traffic. Because of this, if NS wants to keep the traffic and move it quickly to compete with trucks, they are going to HAVE TO use the Southern Tier. It is "Absolutely Vital" (Their words, not mine) to them in the long run.

NS has stated that they will start going after new traffic after the Christmas holiday. Look for them to really start marketting themselves in the transportation picture very shortly