Eastern Railroad Discussion > Ex PRR Ft. Wayne line

Can anyone tell me about the status of the former PRR Chicago - Pittsburgh line? What sections are in service, owned by whom and what levels of traffic? Thank you

Chicago to Crestline, OH is owned by CSX, leased to G&W and NS had trackage rights. NS dispatches the entire line. NS uses rights east from Bucyrus frequently and occasionally west of Ft Wayne. Other than grain in the fall the section east of Lima, Oh is very quite. West of Lima CF&E (G&W) runs a train each way every day.

To add to this, east of Crestline, OH, its essentially a secondary mainline for NS until Alliance, where most Cleveland Line trains join the party, and it becomes the primary artery for the NS from the midwest to the east coast via Conway Yard and Pittsburgh. I would wager that the section between Conway and Pittsburgh is very likely the single busiest line segment on NS, with triple track and upwards of 60-70 trains a day on a really busy day.

Isn't about 20 miles in extreme western Indiana around Tolleston severed with some rail crossings ripped out and trees in the ROW ?

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Isn't about 20 miles in extreme western Indiana
> around Tolleston severed with some rail crossings
> ripped out and trees in the ROW ?


Yes, G&W's diamond at Tolleston has been torn out and only a connection with CSX's Porter branch remains.

Does NS still dispatch the line? I thought G&W had taken that on and done it out of St. Alban?





howeld Wrote:
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> Chicago to Crestline, OH is owned by CSX, leased
> to G&W and NS had trackage rights. NS dispatches
> the entire line. NS uses rights east from Bucyrus
> frequently and occasionally west of Ft Wayne.
> Other than grain in the fall the section east of
> Lima, Oh is very quite. West of Lima CF&E (G&W)
> runs a train each way every day.

Posted from iPhone

I'd wager NS's ex-CR/PC/NYC Chicago line west of Elkhart is busier than east of Conway. About 80 trains per day west of Elkhart. Some freight peels off at Porter, but then on comes a dozen AMTK trains from Michigan. I just rode it twice and stayed a night at the Chesterton Inn.

Let's hope the operators hold onto the Ft Wayne line, what is left of it. From and engineering/operational standpoint in the heyday of railroading it was the best route east from Chicago. PRR ran 100mph behind pairs of hand fired K-4s or a single more modern steam engine. Mile after mile.

MSchwiebert Wrote:
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> Does NS still dispatch the line? I thought G&W had
> taken that on and done it out of St. Alban?
>
>
>
>
>
> howeld Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Chicago to Crestline, OH is owned by CSX,
> leased
> > to G&W and NS had trackage rights. NS
> dispatches
> > the entire line. NS uses rights east from
> Bucyrus
> > frequently and occasionally west of Ft Wayne.
> > Other than grain in the fall the section east
> of
> > Lima, Oh is very quite. West of Lima CF&E
> (G&W)
> > runs a train each way every day.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Well as of last Oct NS still dispatched the line. I was working at an overpass over the line in Lima, Oh. The flagman contacted NS. It could have change since then.

tp117 Wrote:
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> I'd wager NS's ex-CR/PC/NYC Chicago line west of
> Elkhart is busier than east of Conway. About 80
> trains per day west of Elkhart. Some freight peels
> off at Porter, but then on comes a dozen AMTK
> trains from Michigan. I just rode it twice and
> stayed a night at the Chesterton Inn.
>
I would venture that its close to a push. The Section between Pittsburgh and Rochester (west end of Conway) is basically a funnel for traffic moving between all points west/north/midsouth (Chicago, Bellevue, Ft Wayne, Chattanooga, Buffalo, Detroit, Elkhart, Kansas City, etc) and the mid Atlantic and New York market...Most of the Chicago Line intermodals are going to end up on the Ft Wayne Line eventually) Plus there is a lot of coal traffic from the MGA that the Chicago Line doesn't get, and a whole slew of local freights plus the Capitol Limited. It would be interesting to see a train density map to compare. I'm sure NS has that data somewhere :-)

> > I'd wager NS's ex-CR/PC/NYC Chicago line west
> of
> > Elkhart is busier than east of Conway. About 80
> > trains per day west of Elkhart. Some freight
> peels
> > off at Porter, but then on comes a dozen AMTK
> > trains from Michigan. I just rode it twice and
> > stayed a night at the Chesterton Inn.

I believe the Elkhart - Goshen segment is busier than Elkhart - Chicago when ONLY NS freights are taken in account.

> I would venture that its close to a push. The
> Section between Pittsburgh and Rochester (west end
> of Conway) is basically a funnel for traffic
> moving between all points west/north/midsouth
> (Chicago, Bellevue, Ft Wayne, Chattanooga,
> Buffalo, Detroit, Elkhart, Kansas City, etc) and
> the mid Atlantic and New York market...Most of the
> Chicago Line intermodals are going to end up on
> the Ft Wayne Line eventually) Plus there is a lot
> of coal traffic from the MGA that the Chicago Line
> doesn't get, and a whole slew of local freights
> plus the Capitol Limited. It would be interesting
> to see a train density map to compare. I'm sure NS
> has that data somewhere :-)

Mike, it depends what the train density map shows. I find that most of those maps shows only tonnage data and not actual train counts. A line that sees a lot of bulk commodity moves such as coal will have a very high tonnage density but not necessarily a high train count. In contrast, a line that sees a lot of intermodal and few bulk trains will have a lower tonnage density with a higher train count.

Andrew

Posted from iPhone

I wish that line west of Crestline was sold to the W&LE, giving them entry to Chicago. We need a 3rd major line east of Chicago, which can handle at least 10 trains per day. CSX & NS have a choke hold on Chicago East, and it is to everyone's detriment.

Earlier this week or late last week, i saw a press release about plans to establish a passenger train route between chicago and columbus. This line from chicago east to Ft. Wayne was listed as a possible routing.

Posted from iPhone

Yup, it's a clear pipe dream, but as I've mentioned before if I had endless cash or if Congress was serious about making Amtrak service competitive, I would love to see Amtrak buy and upgrade the Chicago-Crestline main. Major downsides would be losing Toledo and Sandusky (though you could perhaps build a connection to the Wabash at Ft Wayne then to NS at Butler; or B&O at Lima and north); but you'd avoid the freight congestion on NS, avoid Elkhart yards, and pick up direct service to Ft Wayne rather than it being a half-hour drive. Then, try and form a carriage agreement with CSX to use the now underused CCC&StL line to connect Crestline to Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati; and either stick with the CSX through NY State or (my ideal) rehab the PRR Columbus-Pittsburgh, take NS through the mountains until you get back to Amtrak trackage at Harrisburg. All of a sudden, you'd have at least half of the Chicago-Points East on Amtrak's own trackage and so have top priority, an upgraded PRR Chicago-Crest could still handle high speeds with conventional rail, and several new cities served while streamlining operations. If you could somehow tap into freight operations, would be great -- but I know the freight lines would balk. And again, the initial investment would be so large I don't see either the political will or private investment to do so... But, one can wish...

The old PFW&C in the Gary area is coming out, if it hasn't been done yet, to make room for the Gary Airport expansion. And CF&E will run on the former N&W Gary District (former Wabash 4th there) in that area. But the rest of the N&W Gary District east of there except for the track at Indiana Sugars will be torn out and Indiana Sugars will be serviced off the CSX Porter Branch. I don't know if NS crews will work it. Has anyone seen any progress on this yet?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/14 22:03 by wabash2800.

robbie Wrote:
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> Yup, it's a clear pipe dream, but as I've
> mentioned before if I had endless cash or if
> Congress was serious about making Amtrak service
> competitive, I would love to see Amtrak buy and
> upgrade the Chicago-Crestline main. Major
> downsides would be losing Toledo and Sandusky
> (though you could perhaps build a connection to
> the Wabash at Ft Wayne then to NS at Butler; or
> B&O at Lima and north); but you'd avoid the
> freight congestion on NS, avoid Elkhart yards, and
> pick up direct service to Ft Wayne rather than it
> being a half-hour drive. Then, try and form a
> carriage agreement with CSX to use the now
> underused CCC&StL line to connect Crestline to
> Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati; and either
> stick with the CSX through NY State or (my ideal)
> rehab the PRR Columbus-Pittsburgh, take NS through
> the mountains until you get back to Amtrak
> trackage at Harrisburg. All of a sudden, you'd
> have at least half of the Chicago-Points East on
> Amtrak's own trackage and so have top priority, an
> upgraded PRR Chicago-Crest could still handle high
> speeds with conventional rail, and several new
> cities served while streamlining operations. If
> you could somehow tap into freight operations,
> would be great -- but I know the freight lines
> would balk. And again, the initial investment
> would be so large I don't see either the political
> will or private investment to do so... But, one
> can wish...


The Toledo version of the passenger pipe dream is that the route comes up from Fort Wayne on what is now the Napoleon, Defiance & Western -- again, rebuilt for high speed -- at least as far as Liberty Center, where it then could divert up the I&O to the existing route near Delta.

To me, it might make more sense to tie Toledo in with the improvements Michigan is making to the ex-MC, although that leaves open the question of whose railroad would be used between Toledo and Detroit's western outskirts. I'd favor CSX's ex-PM in that regard, because it would allow a stop at Metro Airport, but CSX may not be interested.

No doubt Rochester - Conway - to the OC bridge would have th highest tonnage on the NS system. When I said 80 trains per day I was includung CP track right trains and the four AMTKs, a train is a train. I was surprised about Pittsburgh Mike's comment that NS intermodals will shift to 'the Ft Wayne Line'. I presume he means the ex-NKP line into Chicago. I do not have current TTs so I do not know what NS calls it. But if that happens, how will the several intermodals each way that go to Englewood (Park Manor) and 55th St. I also noticed Colehour Yard, which CR did not use much, is full of well cars either empty or loaded with marine cons, and there was some construction going on. It is easy to see since the Capitol always seems to follow an NS intermodal into Chicago. The route via Ashland Ave is also the prefered route for intermodals that connect directly to BNSF and UP.

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The old PFW&C in the Gary area is coming out, if
> it hasn't been done yet, to make room for the Gary
> Airport expansion. And CF&E will run on the former
> N&W Gary District (former Wabash 4th there) in
> that area. But the rest of the N&W Gary District
> east of there except for the track at Indiana
> Sugars will be torn out and Indiana Sugars will be
> serviced off the CSX Porter Branch. I don't know
> if NS crews will work it. Has anyone seen any
> progress on this yet?

From Tolleston east the line will remain intact. The above description is for the line west of there. The diamond will be restored at Tolleston and a connection added in the NE quadrant that will enable NS trains on trackage rights using CF&E (ex-PRR) and the CSX Porter Branch to continue west on ex-PRR. After about a mile or so, the trains will transfer to the parallel NS ex-Wab track. From there west, the PRR ROW will be eliminated as part of the airport expansion.

The main point of all this is to enable NS trains to access the CN/EJE Kirk Yard more easily.

If I recall correctly, W&LE asked for trackage rights to Chicago as part of the Conrail split - and did not get them.
They did however get access to Lima but i don't know if they still make that run or not.


MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wish that line west of Crestline was sold to the
> W&LE, giving them entry to Chicago. We need a 3rd
> major line east of Chicago, which can handle at
> least 10 trains per day. CSX & NS have a choke
> hold on Chicago East, and it is to everyone's
> detriment.

Posted from iPhone

tp117 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No doubt Rochester - Conway - to the OC bridge
> would have th highest tonnage on the NS system.
> When I said 80 trains per day I was includung CP
> track right trains and the four AMTKs, a train is
> a train. I was surprised about Pittsburgh Mike's
> comment that NS intermodals will shift to 'the Ft
> Wayne Line'. I presume he means the ex-NKP line
> into Chicago. I do not have current TTs so I do
> not know what NS calls it. But if that happens,
> how will the several intermodals each way that go
> to Englewood (Park Manor) and 55th St. I also
> noticed Colehour Yard, which CR did not use much,
> is full of well cars either empty or loaded with
> marine cons, and there was some construction going
> on. It is easy to see since the Capitol always
> seems to follow an NS intermodal into Chicago. The
> route via Ashland Ave is also the prefered route
> for intermodals that connect directly to BNSF and
> UP.

I was referencing the line between Conway and Pittsburgh, which, is the Ft Wayne Line....as in, most of the Chicago Line intermodals eventually end up on the Ft Wayne Line between Conway and Pgh.

Mike, yes, with that definition, Alliance to Pittsburgh and east would see almost all the Chicago Line intermodals that are west of Elkhart. Two or three intermodals go to Buffalo, but most of those I think still use the traditional all ex-NKP route Buffalo to Chicago. The ex-NKP out of Chicago also handles most, if not all the NS intermodals that originate at Calumet and Landers, including Roadrailers, and many of them turn south at Fort Wayne. EL's 51st street yard is parallel to 55th street yard; but not really connected except at the north end. I hand mapped both of those yards in the early Conrail days. Is 51st St still open as intermodal? Is it NS? if so eastbound trains from there would have to use ex-NKP east from Chgo.