Eastern Railroad Discussion > Ashland VA vs Front Royal VA train counts

Excluding Amtrak, how closely do the train counts compare between Ashland and Front Royal? I'm just wondering which would be better worth my time? Also, are there better spots for railfanning at one than the other? Thanks for the help.

dan7366 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excluding Amtrak, how closely do the train counts
> compare between Ashland and Front Royal? I'm just
> wondering which would be better worth my time?
> Also, are there better spots for railfanning at
> one than the other? Thanks for the help.

Train count between the two in terms of freight is probably about the same... maybe an ever so slight edge to Front Royal. The old RF&P has seen much of its traffic consolidated in recent years into fewer, but larger trains. A couple intermodal, some junk freights, a juice train and maybe a coal train for good measure. Everything else on the RF&P is passenger. Beyond that, the RF&P will be almost exclusively CSX power leading every single train on account of the cab signal requirements. Not to say the occasional NS unit has never led on the RF&P (even a UP ACe led once), but it is highly unlikely.

Front Royal on the other hand offers the same variety in traffic, but with better chances for good variety in power. Since there are no cab signals on the former N&W, you'll be more likely to see Western roads, Canadian, and everything else, especially in the last few months. I'd wager there hasn't been a 24 hour period on the former N&W through Front Royal that hasn't seen at least one train with some sort of "foreign" leader, if not a completely visiting road consist. Throw the potential for appearance by heritage units, and you've got a pretty good chance of enjoying a rewarding trip trackside. The catch to the N&W however is that it does have considerable lulls in activity, you might go 3 or 4 hours and never see a single train, only to have 4 or 5 in under an hour.

The more or less equal train counts goes for being north of Riverton Junction, like at Cedarville, VA. Most traffic goes east to Manassas, and does not actually go past the Front Royal station. NS on the H and B lines is the only place to see double stacks (short of the CSX between Cherry Run (WV) and Chanbersburg (PA).

hoydie17 Wrote:
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> The old RF&P has seen much
> of its traffic consolidated in recent years into
> fewer, but larger trains. A couple intermodal,
> some junk freights, a juice train and maybe a coal
> train for good measure. Everything else on the
> RF&P is passenger.


Um, last time I checked, 'a couple' didn't mean 5-7.

Through Ashland on average:

Intermodal - 2-3 to/from Baltimore, 3-4 to/from Cumberland (though these sometimes are rerouted via the C&O/Clifton Forge because of National Gateway project work between Cumberland and DC, I don't think the westbound detours run the Buckingham Branch)

Mixed freight - 4 to/from Cumbo, 6 to/from Balt

A pair of OJuice trains

A pair of trash trains

The Richmond-Fredricksburg local out and back

Plus extras and coal.

But you also have the westbound CSX coal empties that go to the Buckingham branch.

So Ashland sees 20-30 freights a day, thus probably more than NS north of Riverton/Front Royal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/14 16:22 by darkcloud.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hoydie17 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The old RF&P has seen much
> > of its traffic consolidated in recent years
> into
> > fewer, but larger trains. A couple intermodal,
> > some junk freights, a juice train and maybe a
> coal
> > train for good measure. Everything else on the
> > RF&P is passenger.
>
>
> Um, last time I checked, 'a couple' didn't mean
> 5-7.
>
> Through Ashland on average:
>
> Intermodal - 2-3 to/from Baltimore, 3-4 to/from
> Cumberland (though these sometimes are rerouted
> via the C&O/Clifton Forge because of National
> Gateway project work between Cumberland and DC, I
> don't think the westbound detours run the
> Buckingham Branch)
>
> Mixed freight - 4 to/from Cumbo, 6 to/from Balt
>
> A pair of OJuice trains
>
> A pair of trash trains
>
> The Richmond-Fredricksburg local out and back
>
> Plus extras and coal.
>
> But you also have the westbound CSX coal empties
> that go to the Buckingham branch.
>
> So Ashland sees 20-30 freights a day, thus
> probably more than NS north of Riverton/Front
> Royal.

Um, last time I checked, Doswell is 6 miles North of Ashland. So you can't count the trains running on the former C&O since the OP asked for Ashland, not Doswell. Beyond that, the trains across the Buckingham Branch are unpredictable in the best of cases, maybe 3 empties daily.

The intermodals between Cumberland and points south, by your own admission, are sometimes rerouted via the C&O routing, which puts you again back to 'a couple' intermodals guaranteed in a given day. Norfolk Southern between Front Royal and Hagerstown is good for a MINIMUM of 10 intermodals daily, and if you want to count the 290 which only runs 3-5 times a week, you can make it 11. Throw in the periodic empty intermodal "restaging moves" and you can get 12 to 13.

There are 4 manifest trains between Cumberland and Richmond (Q400/Q401 and Q415/Q416) and last time I checked 6 between Balto and Richmond (Q405/Q406, Q409/Q410, and Q438/Q439) So the edge in manifests goes to CSX by a whopping 2 trains, while NS decisively takes the table in intermodal traffic.

When it comes to extras, edge would definitely go to NS, since they can be good for 1 or more empty hopper moves on a given day up the H-line, grain trains to/from Harrisonburg, and a plethora of locals. CSX gets the Cross, SC coal trains usually, but they aren't daily moves even in a busy period.

I'll concede that NS doesn't have anything that compares to the trash trains.

As far as I'm concerned NS Hagerstown District would get the dibs over CSX RF&P in volume, and the potential for variety in power merely adds icing to the cake.

hoydie17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Um, last time I checked, Doswell is 6 miles North
> of Ashland. So you can't count the trains running
> on the former C&O since the OP asked for Ashland,
> not Doswell. Beyond that, the trains across the
> Buckingham Branch are unpredictable in the best of
> cases, maybe 3 empties daily.


I thought some of them used the connection from the RF&P to the BB at Doswell. Regardless, on average Ashland sees around 24 freights a day without counting the BB coal empties.


>
> The intermodals between Cumberland and points
> south, by your own admission, are sometimes
> rerouted via the C&O routing, which puts you again
> back to 'a couple' intermodals guaranteed in a
> given day.


Nice try at parsing. Typically, on average, IOW the majority of time, the Norfolk intermodals run via Cumberland. He didn't ask about 'guaranteed'.


> Norfolk Southern between Front Royal
> and Hagerstown is good for a MINIMUM of 10
> intermodals daily, and if you want to count the
> 290 which only runs 3-5 times a week, you can make
> it 11. Throw in the periodic empty intermodal
> "restaging moves" and you can get 12 to 13.
>
> There are 4 manifest trains between Cumberland and
> Richmond (Q400/Q401 and Q415/Q416) and last time I
> checked 6 between Balto and Richmond (Q405/Q406,
> Q409/Q410, and Q438/Q439) So the edge in manifests
> goes to CSX by a whopping 2 trains, while NS
> decisively takes the table in intermodal traffic.
>
>
> When it comes to extras, edge would definitely go
> to NS, since they can be good for 1 or more empty
> hopper moves on a given day up the H-line, grain
> trains to/from Harrisonburg, and a plethora of
> locals. CSX gets the Cross, SC coal trains
> usually, but they aren't daily moves even in a
> busy period.
>
> I'll concede that NS doesn't have anything that
> compares to the trash trains.
>
> As far as I'm concerned NS Hagerstown District
> would get the dibs over CSX RF&P in volume, and
> the potential for variety in power merely adds
> icing to the cake.


Yes, we get the point that you like turtles, but he specifically asked for a train count comparison. I was just correcting the significant under counting and thus misrepresentation of the freight traffic through Ashland. Typically 22+ scheduled moves plus extras and coal.

Sounds like the NS north of Riverton Jct(isn't the actual junction in Front Royal now NS property? So you can't go there without trespassing, so we'll leave some of the locals out) gets about 11 intermodal, 8 mixed freights, a local or 2 each way (depending on location), and some coal, grain, and extras. Typically 21+ to 23+ scheduled moves plus extras and coal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/14 19:02 by darkcloud.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hoydie17 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Um, last time I checked, Doswell is 6 miles
> North
> > of Ashland. So you can't count the trains
> running
> > on the former C&O since the OP asked for
> Ashland,
> > not Doswell. Beyond that, the trains across the
> > Buckingham Branch are unpredictable in the best
> of
> > cases, maybe 3 empties daily.
>
>
> I thought some of them used the connection from
> the RF&P to the BB at Doswell. Regardless, on
> average Ashland sees around 24 freights a day
> without counting the BB coal empties.
>
>
> >
> > The intermodals between Cumberland and points
> > south, by your own admission, are sometimes
> > rerouted via the C&O routing, which puts you
> again
> > back to 'a couple' intermodals guaranteed in a
> > given day.
>
>
> Nice try at parsing. Typically, on average, IOW
> the majority of time, the Norfolk intermodals run
> via Cumberland. He didn't ask about 'guaranteed'.
>
>
>
> > Norfolk Southern between Front Royal
> > and Hagerstown is good for a MINIMUM of 10
> > intermodals daily, and if you want to count the
> > 290 which only runs 3-5 times a week, you can
> make
> > it 11. Throw in the periodic empty intermodal
> > "restaging moves" and you can get 12 to 13.
> >
> > There are 4 manifest trains between Cumberland
> and
> > Richmond (Q400/Q401 and Q415/Q416) and last time
> I
> > checked 6 between Balto and Richmond
> (Q405/Q406,
> > Q409/Q410, and Q438/Q439) So the edge in
> manifests
> > goes to CSX by a whopping 2 trains, while NS
> > decisively takes the table in intermodal
> traffic.
> >
> >
> > When it comes to extras, edge would definitely
> go
> > to NS, since they can be good for 1 or more
> empty
> > hopper moves on a given day up the H-line,
> grain
> > trains to/from Harrisonburg, and a plethora of
> > locals. CSX gets the Cross, SC coal trains
> > usually, but they aren't daily moves even in a
> > busy period.
> >
> > I'll concede that NS doesn't have anything that
> > compares to the trash trains.
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned NS Hagerstown District
> > would get the dibs over CSX RF&P in volume, and
> > the potential for variety in power merely adds
> > icing to the cake.
>
>
> Yes, we get the point that you like turtles, but
> he specifically asked for a train count
> comparison. I was just correcting the significant
> under counting and thus misrepresentation of the
> freight traffic through Ashland. Typically 22+
> scheduled moves plus extras and coal.
>
> Sounds like the NS north of Riverton Jct(isn't the
> actual junction in Front Royal now NS property?
> So you can't go there without trespassing, so
> we'll leave some of the locals out) gets about 11
> intermodal, 8 mixed freights, a local or 2 each
> way (depending on location), and some coal, grain,
> and extras. Typically 21+ to 23+ scheduled moves
> plus extras and coal.

Ok, thanks for validating my point. I said the count between the two was "about even with an ever so slight edge to Front Royal"... Your own testimony supports that claim.

At for Riverton Junction, it has always been NS property. So inferring that one could ever go there without trespassing is disingenuous at best.

Posted from iPhone

hoydie17 Wrote:

> At for Riverton Junction, it has always been NS
> property. So inferring that one could ever go
> there without trespassing is disingenuous at best.


Always, huh?

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,2218661,2218928#msg-2218928

Date: 06/26/10 19:55
Re: Riverton Jct. VA....NS Creative Engineering
Author: MrMichael

MrMichael Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is a construction zone and there are
> road closed signs and posted no trespassing signs
> placed on Depot Ave at the end of the public
> street (by the fire hydrant). Depot Ave has been
> purchased by NS and is no longer a public street
> by the tracks - only NS and Riverton Quarry
> personnel are allowed.


Sounds like a relatively recent purchase, less than a decade ago.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hoydie17 Wrote:
>
> > At for Riverton Junction, it has always been NS
> > property. So inferring that one could ever go
> > there without trespassing is disingenuous at
> best.
>
>
> Always, huh?
>
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,2
> 218661,2218928#msg-2218928
>
> Date: 06/26/10 19:55
> Re: Riverton Jct. VA....NS Creative Engineering
> Author: MrMichael
>
> MrMichael Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That is a construction zone and there are
> > road closed signs and posted no trespassing
> signs
> > placed on Depot Ave at the end of the public
> > street (by the fire hydrant). Depot Ave has
> been
> > purchased by NS and is no longer a public
> street
> > by the tracks - only NS and Riverton Quarry
> > personnel are allowed.
>
>
> Sounds like a relatively recent purchase, less
> than a decade ago.

Nice spin... The Junction itself, as in where the tracks all intersect each other, has always been RR property. Don't try to act like you thought I was talking about the entire bordering neighborhood.

This is way off topic now anyways, well done. I can't believe I let myself get into this useless back and forth, also well done. However, I'm pleased to note that problem is correctable....