Eastern Railroad Discussion > Long Hood Forward

Was there any particular reason some roads usually ran their engines with the long hood forward? The N&W and SOU come to mind. Did the cabs of these engines have the engineer's side switched to accomodate this? Does the little "F" on locomotives by the steps mean "Front" or something similar? On these long hood forward roads, the F seems to placed next to the long hood steps instead of the short hood.

The "F" does indeed mean "Front." The long-hood forward operation was ostensibly a safety consideration. Southern and N&W were the only roads I can think of that continued this practice into the "second generation" of locomotives, but earlier on there were others, including New York Central, that set-up their engines to run long-hood forward.

Until the 40 series came out CN ran all locomotives(except F units and MLW Cab units) long hood forward. It was indeed a safety feature. CP and consequently the E&N ran everything short hood forward except the two ex-NS GP38's that RA sent over. Only the early MLW road switchers RS-2 to RS10 were set up for long hood forward, as were the Baldwins.

Safety reasons notwithstanding, the concept stunk. Sitting there breathing in diesel fumes, hot air, and looking through an dinky oil-stained window was the pits. And the visibility problems it created, in my estimation, out weighed the rather small advantage of having the long hood in front of you in the event of a collision. I had more near-misses because of not being able to see everything in front of me, and having to rely on others to see what was on the "blind side" of the cab. Even high-hood units running short end forward were lousy.

Railroads like the N&W just didn't get it. But then they didn't have toilets aboard until very recently, either.

You want to feel really unprotected? Run a Budd (RDC) car over 32 grade crossings in a 62 mile piece of track.

anvilhead wrote:

> Safety reasons notwithstanding, the concept stunk. Sitting
> there breathing in diesel fumes, hot air, and looking through
> an dinky oil-stained window was the pits. And the visibility
> problems it created, in my estimation, out weighed the rather
> small advantage of having the long hood in front of you in the
> event of a collision. I had more near-misses because of not
> being able to see everything in front of me, and having to rely
> on others to see what was on the "blind side" of the cab. Even
> high-hood units running short end forward were lousy.
>


All this is exactly why I included the word "ostensibly" in my remarks about long-hood forward being for safety reasons. Thank you for detailing the concept's shortcomings.

To answer the question about controls, yes, they are switched around in the cab. Also they are at less of an angle to allow easier reach of the controls while running the opposite direction.

Actually I think it had to do with the fact that they were replacing steam engines, which unless you were on the Southern Pacific were long hood forward by design. So early diesels were built the same way because "that's the way it's always been done". It took a while for the advantages of cab forward design to be apparent. This was especially true on the N&W as they skipped the E/F diesel generation. Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

Just a side note - Southern GP30's, GP35's and SD35's were set up as short hood forward units - but like their LHF counterparts they had the control stand mounted parallel to the cab wall rather than angled so that they too could be run long end forward. I have also heard that SR and N&W kept the practice of highnose/LHF units to speed up running the freight - and not have to worry about turning units "the right way". With the highnose/LHF/dual controls (in many N&W units) the units could run in any direction.
Larry

"You want to feel really unprotected? Run a Budd (RDC) car over 32 grade crossings in a 62 mile piece of track."

Where was this? One of the retired engineers who spoke at the 50th anniversary of the PRSL Budd cars at Cape May in 2000 said he had ninety-some grade crossings from Cape May to 30th Street, but that may have been round trip.

The N&W equipped all it's high short locomotives (as well as their Alco RS-3 units and most of their Alco T-6 switchers) with dual control stands. This allowed the locomotives to be easily operated in either direction.

None of the Southern Railway locomotives had dual control stands. Most of the Southern Railway units were equipped with a bi-directional control stand that was mounted parallel to the side of the cab. The bi-directional stand also made it easier for an engineer to operate a locomotive in either direction. Starting with the Southern SD45 units, Southern placed the bi-directional control stand on the right side of the locomotive with the long hood designated as the front. This was to allow engineer's a better view of signals when running long hood lead. Then when running short hood lead it was much easier to see around the short hood since the engineer was operating from the left.

The idea that the N&W and Southern regularly operated its locomotives long hood forward is a myth. The reason for bi-directional and dual control stands was to allow for maximum flexibility as the units could be operated in either direction easier and safer without having to waste time to turn units that were facing the wrong direction. The N&W and Southern units regularly operated both long hood and short hood lead.

None of RF&P's GP40's were upgraded to -2 standards. They remained as built until the end - dual controls and all.
Larry

I was told the electronics was upgraded to -2, not the controls. RF&P took very good care of their equipment.

Dave

Nope. They would still be in service on CSX most likely had they been upgraded and would have worn different numbers other than the 6800 series they got after CSX took over. Only 9726 (nee RF&P 126) remains. You're right though - RF&P did take great care of their power.While working for CSX I spent some time aboard 9703 (nee RFP 122) and it remained exactly as it was the day it left LaGrange in 1966.
Larry

Flame away, but until you have watched 4 SD40-2 with the lead running long hood first, all run 8, and pulling hard up a hill with a coal drag...

That big front porch leading the way!!

Now thats one of the best....

Randy

New Haven's double track mainline from New Haven, Ct. to Springfield, Mass.

More collisions and near-misses than I care to think about.......not including vandalism (barriers made out of ties, etc).

On the matter of dual control stands, this setup really was the pits, as the cabs were small enough without having two of everything in them.

It was like sitting in a room full of junk.....

Sometimes they have to operate LHF out of necessity, such as today's return run of Conrail SAA FJ-10. On the trip from the I-95 switch in Croydon back to Frankford Junction, PRR 2921 running "backwards" led a train of about a dozen cars, as there was no place to turn the engine. This is a frequent occurence and
makes for an interesting change from the usual freight. Of course local runs are much different from through freights.

How were the Roger Williams cars with their "noses?" Were they any improvement over standard RDC's? Did you get them frequently?

The Roger Williams was a bit "better" than the flat-front-you're-the-front-bumper RDC's. They weren't used too much as I recall - kind of like an experimental thing.

It was still not the same as an E-8 or FL-9 in terms of feeling like a sturdy nose was in front of you, especially in grade crossing areas.

When the real RF&P was still in business, their policy was all even numbered locomotives were short hood pointed north and all odd numbered locomotives were short hood pointed south. In the glory days of the Orange Blossom Special, locomotives 142, 144 or 146 were specifically assigned to this service, started running by themselves from Richmond Va to Wilsmere Delaware and return. These locomotives believe it or not ran long hood forward all the way back to Richmond. Locomotives 141, 143,145 and 147 very seldom made this run only until later when the train was extended to New Jersey. Locomotives 141-147, the only single direction GP40s had cab signal track receivers on both ends that enabled them to run backwards on the RF&P.