Eastern Railroad Discussion > Norfolk Southern: we dont handle friction bearings

I always thought that in a normal situation, you are not allowed to handle or interchange friction bearings unless in special terms of a slow moving train, special/museum move etc. with a special writeoff about it. A friend told me 2 older passenger cars were going to move, the pars have an extensive amount of work done to them, and the NS car inspector came out twice (2times!) and said there would be no speed restrictions on these cars... (Doesnt make sense when you can only do 30 with them)... And now the bricks been lifted and ready to move, NS came back and said they do not move friction bearings. I know you need a special writeoff about it, and normally it would pass. Did NS change thier handling rules?

Posted from iPhone

I thought you could not interchange friction bearings period...since 1995...

bluesboyst Wrote:
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> I thought you could not interchange friction
> bearings period...since 1995...


Correct: however you can get it exempt through paperwork and under a special move.

Posted from iPhone

bluesboyst Wrote:
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> I thought you could not interchange friction
> bearings period...since 1995...

That applies to cars in general interchange.  One railroad cannot simply offer a friction bearing car to another railroad in interchange.  However any railroad can operate friction bearing cars (or any other non approved interchange car) on their own line, subject to their own internal controls, and any two carriers may have a special agreement to interchange a non-complying car between themselves.

I have a hunch I know the two cars in question, and I was simple flabbergasted when I heard that NS cleared moving them period...

I'm surprised anyone would attempt to get NS or any other major road to move anything with friction bearings.
Several years ago, I recall reading about moving a restored LI caboose with friction bearings just across town in New York City. The restrictions for this short move were overwhelming.
ALLEN

Most reading this will find what I say to be in error, but it is not.  Railroad private owned work cars and private business car that do not carry revenue passenger are out of the jurisdiction of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) because they are the property of industry, and not being used for inTERstate Commerce.  Because of the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution the Federal Government does not have jurisdiction over industry, only over Interstate or foreign commerce.  That is covered by the States laws. The Act to Regulate Interstate Commerce (1893) defines these limits of jurisdiction. And the Safety Appliance Act (1903) required only for: “Cars that carry interstate and foreign commerce” to be equipped with certain appliances such as couplers that couple on impact without man involvement, air brakes on 50% of the cars in a train operated by one engineer, an arrangement of ladders, side steps and various items as later described by the ICC, a regulating agency to police the Act to Regulate Interstate Commerce.  The ICC functions of safety review were forwarded to the Federal Railroad Administration.

The FRA limits of jurisdiction relate back to the US Constitution and still restrict them. They can not police the Industry portion of railroad operations.  The FRA do not have jurisdiction to look at any M of W private work equipment of any railroad, except for any safety endangerment if these cars are operated within or in a location that could cause a hazard to interstate commerce.  A railroad can operate a work train even without air brakes if they like, such as recently was the case of the Valley Railroad of CT using a HT&W snow plow that does not even have brake shoes,-no air brakes and no hand brake, but it is legal unless a state law prevented it.  Many logging trains with 4-wheel bunk car (disc-connects) have operated in many places in the past without any air brakes on the trains, over the common-carrier lines of the national railroad system.  The first exemption in the SAA says that 4-wheel cars are exempt.  8-wheel logging cars are exempt if coupler height is not greater than 25 inches.  Locomotives used exclusively on log trains are exempt.  These exemptions are because log trains are not commerce, and those movements are not conducting transportation as they are industry.

The cars in the private Union Pacific business car fleet (for example) are coded UPP to identify they are private industry and the FRA does not have jurisdiction to look at them unless they fear there may be a hazard that could affect any interstate commerce on the national system. All the member railroads also comply with the rules of the Association of American RR (AAR) but these are organization rules that can be bent by private railroad.  The AAR first restricted use of plain bearings on interchange, and the FRA adopted that, but all railroads can still use such on their own lines as they see fit, if in clear exclusion of interfering with any interstate commerce.   One example of work equipment never being looked at was the rotary snow plow in March 1977 still had cast iron wheel when en route to the Buffalo Blizzard.  It was the company interest to update them at Rochester at that time but they were legal for the industry use on its own railroad.  Private passenger cars with plain bearing can be use if the railroad knows they have personnel capable to service the lubrication needs of such bearings.
 

krm152 Wrote:
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> I'm surprised anyone would attempt to get NS or
> any other major road to move anything with
> friction bearings.
> Several years ago, I recall reading about moving a
> restored LI caboose with friction bearings just
> across town in New York City. The restrictions
> for this short move were overwhelming.
> ALLEN

Across town is a bit much, It was close to 100 miles at 15mph, until we got on the FRA exempt NYCTA.... 

UPP...that's a new explanation to me!  That usage doesn't go back too far. I thought it was just to put them in
a separate number series, like UPY for switch engines.

All make you wonder how those railroads operated friction bearing passenger cars on trains that often reached 90MPH or above. What did they do before the invention of roller bearings?

They were all set up to oil them before they departed every yard, and all trains got a 500 mile inspection in a yard.  Trains had cabooses with a brakeman and a conductor in them, an engineer, a fireman and a brakeman on the engine, and another brakeman riding the top of the cars.  Engines and cabooses were equipped with "cooling sticks" which would help get a hotbox to the next setout track.
​Most of the yards had a complete underground piping system with a fill pipe and a valve that filled the carman's oil can just by raising the lid.
​There wasn't a single engined freight locomotive with over 2500 horsepower before 1960.
G

Much of big steam was way over 2500 hp, even a big Mike was over 2500 hp.

Out

Well excuse me for not saying DIESEL-ELECTRIC!​

​While we're at it, isn't an articulated steam engine such as a 2-6-6-2 or 4-8-8-4 etc considered as having two engines?

​There weren't ANY steam engines built in the United States after 1960 that had more than 2500 HP either!
G

IIRC there are a few newer defect detectors set up not to detect heat but a high-frequency tone (above the human threshold) that roller bearings emit when they are failing or about to fail. A hot plain bearing passing over one of these detectors would go undetected. I don't know how prevalent these types of detectors are now (they were experimental in the 1990s) but if that is the way the industry is going then that would be one more reason for railroads not to accept plain bearings in normal interchange.

BTW, the term "fricition bearing" is a misnomer as ALL bearings are subject to the forces of friction. They are also not "flat bearings" as anyone who has actually looked at one will tell you they are anything but flat. Plain bearings is the acceptable industry term.

NZ

The SP's detectors used infrared technology to sense temperature remotely.  Also, they compare the temperature between both ends of the axle.  There is an upper limit that will cause a trip, but a fairly small difference between the bearings on each end of the axle will cause a trip when neither end is over the limit.  As I remember, the recording tape was graduated in millimeters, with each millimeter equalling 15 degrees.  A reading of 3 on one side, and 5 on the other side would cause a trip, where a reading of two 5s wouldn't trip.
G

For what it's worth, NS moved Y6a 2156 from St. Louis to Roanoke with plain bearings on all tender axles last year.

The movement of N&W #2156 together with its tender having plain bearings (aka solid bearings or friction bearings) was a done as an extraordinary special move. 
As such, it can not be considered a precedent for the movement of equipment (engines and/or cars) with plain bearing cars by NS.
ALLEN  

Railroads no longer train or have car department employees who are trained to service plain bearing.  It would be like being a new crew in a yard today waiting for their train to come in for them to get on as the re-crew, and that train instead arrives with a steam locomotive and not a modern diesel.  And the Road Foreman of Engines had also never been on a steam locomotive nor ever rode on one.  Just imagine what that engine-man would do and he did not have a skilled fireman to tend to the boiler.  There are no one trained today to know what a plane bearing requires, and that kind of bearing oil is now hard to even purchase.
If a railroad wants to move plain bearing cars and has people who know how to service them, it is legal, but you can not offer up that car to an connecting carrier unless there is a special arrangement of agreement to receive that as a special movement.  That was the case when the UP agreed to move the N&W Y6 a short number of miles in benefit to the NS that wanted it in Roanoke.  A railroad can move what they want but can not force it onto another carrier without their agreement.  The AAR and later, the FRA restricted them from interchange,  Many railroad still have work equipment cars that roll with plain bearing, but most have replaced them with roller bearing, to prevent them ever getting mixed up in a regular train. Many snow plow may be found with plain bearing for example.  Also, work equipment never came under the Safety Appliance Act and most do not have any standard for steps and etc. You can even have a snow plow with link and pin couples and it can be linked to the link and pin coupler of a locomotive and be legal in most states in the USA, but not NY state.   New York made a law requiring MCB couples on ever car and engine in the state.  The coupler on Locomotives never were covered by the SAA and can still be Link-and-Pin, even under the FRA rules , but can not interchange.
An example of this was the coupling of the "York" and "Leviathan with link-and-pin on a double headed passenger train at New Freedom, PA in September 2013.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/16 05:33 by PlyWoody.

> BTW, the term "fricition bearing" is a misnomer as ALL bearings are subject to the forces of
> friction. They are also not "flat bearings" as anyone who has actually looked at one will tell
> you they are anything but flat. Plain bearings is the acceptable industry term.

When I was younger I always heard them referred to as "journal bearings". 'Friction bearings' was a term pushed by Timken to cast aspersions on conventional bearings.
steeplecab