Eastern Railroad Discussion > B&P Tunnel from clueless out west.

I have been inside the Tunnel outside of the Baltimore Station. Granted it has some sharp curvature. But, according to a friend that lives
in Baltimore, reducing the curvature and increaseing the speed by 10 mph will only save Amtrak approximately 35 seconds running time
for the cost of millions! Please comment.

https://nec.amtrak.com/content/baltimore-potomac-bp-tunnel-replacement

http://baltimoreheritage.org/issue/bp-tunnel-project/#.Vyj8WUg262E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/16 12:31 by elu34ch.

It was built of brick during President Ulysses S. Grant's administration, and it needs to go.

Daylight it, straighten it, triple track the trench and save 100's of millions.
​There isn't a need to increase speed as shortly after Northbound entering tunnel there is station stop BAL. 
​



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/16 14:01 by PennPlat.

Its called Urban Renewal! 
Just scrape off whats over the top of this tunnel, daylight it and
as mentioned above triple track it, icrease the spped where possible
and get on with it! Happens all over the country! 

Mike

Acela service started during December 1999, as additional sets became available in 2000 they tried non-stop from WAS to NYP, so that did shave off some time.
​Even with present slightly less than 3 hr service it is still the fastest way from DC downtown to NYC midtown.

Solve all of Balto's rail problems by having a four or five track trench roughly on AMTK's present footprint to accommodate all thru passenger and freight traffic. Compensate those that live or own property above fairly. This should have been started in the first Obama administration when they had the good sense to invest in rail capital projects and money was available. Unfortunately the rail projects they pursued had little relevancy to actual rail infrastructure problems and fell apart. Wonder if they had any rail consultants. I've said this before. One of the present presidential front runners would not be interested in this and the other party's candidate unlikely too. Baltimore, my home town and a failing town, will have to live with its ancient RR infrastructure for a long time or until something really catastrophic happens.  

The problem with the Obama rail program was that, as seems to be the case with all such programs, is it tried to spread money across the country to many constituencies and thus was too shallow. Ohio and Wisconsin turning back their rail money actually helped provide meaningful funding to projects in other states, such as Michigan.

Citing "urban renewal" as justification to clear out the neighborhood above B&P Tunnel and daylight it probably wouldn't gain much traction these days, considering how "urban renewal" of the 1950s and 1960s has been discredited. I don't know much about the neighborhood above the tunnel other than its being in Baltimore, but I'm imagining it's not very wealthy or that wouldn't be suggested.

Toledopatch: My suggestion of using the current AMTK footprint for an 'Alameda' type trench to solve the rail infrastructure problems in Baltimore was not made because the affected neighborhoods are poor. They are, now, for sure. My suggestion of a trench is because I know the area well and the Northeast rail infrastructure, and in Baltimore it is all decrepit now, altho it was a marvel over 100 years ago. AMTK's ex-PRR main line thru the tunnels is on a little bit better (straighter) alignment than the ex-B&O. It is also higher. The mouth of the current Howard Street tunnel in Balto is actually a few feet below sea level. Baltimore has never been a 'rich' city compared to Philadelphia or even Wilmington, DE. My Dad born in 1908 grew up on East Fayette Street in a small narrow row home like all the others still there, and like most of the housing above the AMTK tunnels. These folks, certainly poor, just might welcome something that could mean financial gain for them and improve their circumstance. and I'm not saying it has to be a trench; it could be re-covered in many areas to unit neighborhoods. But there is no sense improving Baltimore's passenger lines without also addressing and including the freight lines as well. For passenger it has to be fast except near the present station, or build a new one. For freight double stack clearances. And NS should have a route thru the city if they want one, as inheritors of Conrail's freight routes on the NEC. 

Your other comment about the politics of spreading whatever governmental largess around to several states is a good point. But that is what you have here in the crowded NEC with small states and a often constipated Interstate Highway system. What money is spent improving rail infrastructure in one city (Baltimore) in one state (MD) improves freight and passenger service and access from southern Virginia to northern New Jersey. A program like I suggest for Baltimore is needed in Philadelphia too and it may be easier and cheaper there. They all now involve low income areas, yes. Fairly compensate and accommodate those folks. It has to be cheaper than building a whole new High Speed Rail line in the NEC, for passenger only, which most surely would pass thru, over, or under highly valued property which would be highly contested and terribly expensive even under the law of eminent domain.  

Most of the properties above BP, Wilson St for instance, is  likely owned by real estate investors(slum lords), not by the residents.  Some of the properties are boarded up and should be torn down. 
​The latest proposal takes the lne a little farther N, partly under the wealhy Botlon Hill Area, that is where the lady resides who was concerned about the possibility of nuclear material
​being hauled through a tunnel under her home.   Bolton HIll is widely populated with social activists who can find cause against most anything you might imagine not the least of which is a new
rail tunnel.

​I'll repeat, daylighting and reworking BP is the best way to go.

The political situation in Baltimore doesn't lend itself to thoughtful, long term rail solutions. An improvement for rich Acela folks would be red meat.

Deliver improvements to the neighborhoods, after that's happened, talk about Acela.

Posted from Android

The curves where the brief daylight section of B&P tunnel exists, (and where the gauntlet track was for freight); and the curve at the north end of B&P tunnel almost under North Ave are too sharp for a modern alignment for high speed passenger or even decent freight speeds. They have to be eased out a long way, and widened. Even tho I''m from Balto I did not know of the Bolton Hill wealthy/activist area; maybe it is new after I left 50 years ago. But any new practical alignment in Balto will affect many more poor folks than these maybe rich folks. We all have to share in the progress of our transport system which also translates into the progress of our country. Nuclear products thru Balto tunnels as a danger? I doubt it. But I bet there are 80-100 cars of placarded Hazmats of all sorts passing thru the existing Howard Street tunnel every day on that ancient alignment. And Bolton Hill is just west of that at the north end near the old Mt Royal station. Would not these materials......which must be transported because everyone of us as a member of our current society uses and therefore demands them , be safer and better off with a new alignment thru Balto with a trench open or partially closed with less curvature, better grades less prone to flooding or accidents, than what is there now?

Politics will control this , regardless of logic. And the Trainorders police will probably delete this, because they have never accepted how much politics affects transport decisions, regardless of mode. They live in a big state (CA) where one legislature can be persuaded one way or the other, depending on whose sits at the top. They have been able to make some very good 'rail' decisions in the last few years. But here in the East, with all the states involved, some red, some blue, a few led by dubious Governors, any agreement to improve any infrastructure is totally challenged at best. The results of the Indiana primary make it worse.