Eastern Railroad Discussion > Lets beat this dead horse some more.

Why do RR Managers seem to always quote some obscure, non existent Federal Law when it comes to taking shots from Public Property? I was to;d today while shooting from Public Property by a CSX TM that it was against Federal Law that I could not take photo's of any trains due to this Fed Law saying so. Reason he gave me was the presence of "freight cars of all types, esp Haz Mat Cars and Containers and them not knowing who may be shooting photo's.   Are the RR's not letting their managers know that No Law as they state exists?  Just curious. But it's way beyond getting old and the Dead Horse comment.    Ben

If I'm in the right place at the right time, I'd be calling his bluff. "Go ahead, call the police. Please make sure they have the correct citation of that law ready."

ns2557 Wrote:
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> Why do RR Managers seem to always quote some
> obscure, non existent Federal Law when it comes to
> taking shots from Public Property? I was to;d
> today while shooting from Public Property by a CSX
> TM that it was against Federal Law that I could
> not take photo's of any trains due to this Fed Law
> saying so. Reason he gave me was the presence of
> "freight cars of all types, esp Haz Mat Cars and
> Containers and them not knowing who may be
> shooting photo's.   Are the RR's not letting
> their managers know that No Law as they state
> exists?

Some managers used to threaten to charge me with violation of nonexistent rules. It appears that for some folks, not a lot has changed.

TAW

TAW Wrote:

> Some managers used to threaten to charge me with
> violation of nonexistent rules. It appears that
> for some folks, not a lot has changed.
>
> TAW

TAW, This gent while chatting with him a few, told me he was a graduate of the CSX Mgr Training Program and he has been a TM for 10 years or more. Just think that they would possibly "update" some of the info the push out to these guy's. He was by the way, very pleasant in all respects except for the no photo policy. Just wasn't in the mood to argue with him abt this "Fed Law".  Why ruin a decent, up to that point, good day.  Who knows where it would/could lead to.  Ben

I haven't had it happen to me lately,but when it has, I always ask them to show this law in writing. In  fact, I have offered to follow them, to his/her office and they can show it to me;so far no takers.

The Department of Homeland Security issued a memo a couple years back saying that you can take pictures of anything in public, from public land. Period. Dosent matter if it's a military base, DEA office or local police station. If you YouTube "1st Amendment Audit" you'll get a clear picture how much sticking to your guns does work.

Posted from Android

> Lets beat this dead horse some more.


We need a subforum with this title.

I always carry a copy of "Your Rights and Remides When Stopped or Confronted for Photogtaphy" by Bart P. Krages.  I also have my copy of the BNSF "Citizens for Rail Security."
I haven't had to use it yet.

darkcloud Wrote:
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> > Lets beat this dead horse some more.
>
>
> We need a subforum with this title.

Now that would be good, I know I'd look at it.  Ben

tell him  to pull up the law on his smart phone

We need to pull out and install a BS filter on our camera's when this happens, Ben, why didn't you use yours LOL

Ed Stewart
Jacksonville, FL

calsubd Wrote:
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> We need to pull out and install a BS filter on our
> camera's when this happens, Ben, why didn't you
> use yours LOL

Ed, You know I am not a real confrontational type guy for the most part. He was decent enough that I didn't want to pull out that "Ex USN" type attitude that we retired types sometimes can have.:).  All in all, I did get some shots, so I was happy.  Ben

NS got me a few years back. I'm on their "list" in the officer's little black book. I hesitated to change something called "film" in my camera and whamo he got me! Pixels are faster!
He was pleasant enough but took my info, I'm a goner!
Gonut

Gonut1 Wrote:
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> NS got me a few years back. I'm on their "list" in
> the officer's little black book. I hesitated to
> change something called "film" in my camera and
> whamo he got me! Pixels are faster!
> He was pleasant enough but took my info, I'm a
> goner!
> Gonut  

Gonut, Am I gonna see you're portarit in the Post Office?  Hope not.  Ben

Although this subject comes up every now & then, it is not discussed so frequently that it belongs in the dead (iron) horse category.

Beating a dead (iron) horse describes all the threads on UP steam (or lack thereof) and whether Amtrak makes a profit on Northeast Corridor trains.

NSClevelandLine Wrote:
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> The Department of Homeland Security issued a memo
> a couple years back saying that you can take
> pictures of anything in public, from public land.
> Period. Dosent matter if it's a military base, DEA
> office or local police station. If you YouTube
> "1st Amendment Audit" you'll get a clear picture
> how much sticking to your guns does work.
>
> Posted from Android

That bring up a an interesting situation at Ft Knox.  Most people don't realize this but you can drive withing within about 300 yards of the United States Bullion Depository at Ft Knox.  The "Gold Vault" is on property controlled by the U.S. Treasury department.  It just happens to be completely surrounded by the DOD property.  You can drive past it on US-31W but I've been told that it's not advisable to stop and take pictures.  Here's what makes it confusing.  The US highway runs through the post.  The traffic laws along that stretch of the road are enforced by the MPs.  It's a public accessable road on military property controlled by the military.  Now let me add some railroad content.  The P&L RR runs through the post also and about 550 yards from the Depository.

The depository is in the center of the Google Earth photo.  US-31W is to the southwest, running from the top left to the bottom center.   The P&L tracks are on the right hand side of the photo.  The area west of 31W is a military housing area.  The road on the northwest side of the depository is inside the Treasury Department's fence.  Basically, everything is DOD controlled other than the clear cut area around the vault building and that's controled by the Treasury Department.  Kind of makes you wonder if the "Public property" rule applies in this situation.

Here's the visable security around the depository.   There is a 8' chain link fence on the perimeter.  The thin outer square is an iron fence similar to the one around the White house.  On the edge of the gray pavement area are Jersey barriers, and then you get to the depository building.  You never see guards but if you are on the golf course to the northeast  and your ball gets a bit too close to the fence, you hear from a speaker "Halt!  State your business."  You tell them you ball is over there near the fence and they tell you it's a lost ball.  The gold was brought to the Ft Knox by train and then loaded onto 2 1/2 ton military trucks for transport to the vault.

John

---

Re Fort Knox:

I think if you have a lot of extra time on your hands, then you can test the theory that it is legal to photograph trains on base property or in close proximity to the base. Overall, probably not worth it.

Gary

Posted from iPhone

 When railfanning and shooting video, I have a standard policy when confronted by some employee with a "it's against Federal law" warning: I always tell 'em I can take pictures of anything on this railroad that passing cars and pedestrians can see, but I'll move along at your request. Of course, if I'm trespassing on RR property then I move along right quick. :-))

You're right about the subject line. "Dead Horse" applies to this and the "Darwin Award", "Idiot" and other such commentary after a train strikes a car or pedestrian.

Danny Harmon
Tampa

There are a few properties where the no trespassing / no photography warning is accompanied by a citation from the espionage act.

The nuclear submarine facility in Groton CT has these signs along the public fence, along with use of deadly force authorized.

Probably an artifact of the era when every two bit tin can country and terrorist club didn't have its own satellite photography capability

wa4umr Wrote:
 You never see guards but if you are on
> the golf course to the northeast  and your ball
> gets a bit too close to the fence, you hear from a
> speaker "Halt!  State your business."  You tell
> them you ball is over there near the fence and
> they tell you it's a lost ball.  

Let's hope they have a local rule exempting you from the 1-stroke penalty in this situation.