Eastern Railroad Discussion > Gas fired switch heaters versus electric heaters?

Any thoughts from MW etc folks about devices used to keep rail switch points moving in ice and snow storms?  There's some discussion on other threads about electric heaters not being up to the job, and propane / natural gas fired heaters replacing them. In some cases, propane / nat gas was replaced by electric, and is now coming back

I would think that the kind of snow, freezing rain, ice etc could make a difference. But the biggest difference would be if the electric power in the area went down.  In some areas, that's a big problem with cell phone service. Lose power at the pole, and you lose cell service at that location. With propane, light the heater and you're done.

If electrical power out, then you wouldn't have the fans/blowers
​for the propane units; don't think there's battery backup.

NKP715 Wrote:
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> If electrical power out, then you wouldn't have
> the fans/blowers
> ​for the propane units; don't think there's
> battery backup.

I know of at least one Class 1 here in the east, who has been installing propane powered backup generators at their interlockings.

Operating cost is the big factor of what gets installed. Electric work much better where you have problems with blowing snow. Hot air blowers have lots of problems with melting the snow and then the moisture will re freeze as ice. The best are the direct propane or natural gas with a open flame at the rail. These also use a cover to keep heat in. Only problem is you can have tie fires if things are not working correctly.

Posted from iPhone

Years ago, Conrail and NJ Transit used small flame propane switch heaters in Hoboken.  Late at night you could see the dozens / hundreds of tiny flames out in the yard.  Lovely sight, but as noted in an earlier post, probably created a huge fire risk.

 

Someone needs to repost the story of the volunteer fire department trying to put out an active switch heater...

An propane or natural gas heaters used in conjunction with concrete switch ties?

Rather then asking MW people I would ask the train dispatchers because they are the ones
that see the results.  In my experience MW and signal management was only interested in the
lowest cost, least maintenance solution.  Whether they worked as needed was another subject.

I was always glad for any heater.
Gas, propane, kerosene, anything was better than the cold air blowers that geniuses thought
would keep the points clean.  They didn't do anything when it snowed but you could go hirailing past
them when it was 50 degrees and hear the blowers running.

In Hyattsville, MD at JD Interlocking (CSX) on an apparently boring Sunday afternoon on a bitter cold January day about 20 years ago, the fire dept. discovered a "fire" in the switches (propane heaters) and came and sprayed water trying to put out the fire.......   They managed to freeze up the whole plant, while a CSX road foreman cursed them out for utter stupidity. 

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Years ago, Conrail and NJ Transit used small flame
> propane switch heaters in Hoboken.  Late at night
> you could see the dozens / hundreds of tiny flames
> out in the yard.  Lovely sight, but as noted in
> an earlier post, probably created a huge fire
> risk.


Not at all. What's to burn? The ties? You just don't put the fire against the ties and it's all fine. Open flame has been used to heat switches for over a century.

It's just another excuse for we can't. 

TAW

NKP715 Wrote:
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> If electrical power out, then you wouldn't have
> the fans/blowers
> ​for the propane units; don't think there's
> battery backup.

If the electrical power goes out, you don't have power for electric heaters.

In decades of winter railroading, I never had kerosene or gas heaters fail unless someone forgot to fuel them or light them (or in later years intentionally didn't light them because they didn't want to spend money from their budget - not lighting the heaters delays trains, which is someone else's budget). I have never had kerosene or gas heaters blow out.

I have had electric heaters fail when the power went out, but also when dragging equipment or some other cause broke the power cable, which would sometimes short and destroy the switch heater controls or even the switch machine. I had a failure at Blackfoot MT in which the gandys didn't clear a path in the snow around the points for drainage. Water built up, provided a path to ground between the heater element and the operating rod of the switch machine, smoking the heater, the switch machine, the track relay and the track batteries. That was epensive and took a lot of (somebody else's budget) time to replace. The maintainer was able to get the switch freed up for hand throw, but I had no signals between Browning and Blackfoot.

In general, I have had better experience with fire than glowing wire.

TAW

nm2320 Wrote:
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> An propane or natural gas heaters used in
> conjunction with concrete switch ties?


Yes.

Posted from iPhone

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Hyattsville, MD at JD Interlocking (CSX) on an
> apparently boring Sunday afternoon on a bitter
> cold January day about 20 years

ago, the fire
> dept. discovered a "fire" in the switches
> (propane heaters) and came and

sprayed
> water trying to put out the fire.......   They
> managed to freeze up the whole

plant, while a CSX
> road foreman cursed them out for utter
> stupidity. 

It's happened on other locations on CSX also.

Posted from iPhone

Pheasants like both in winter:)

As a dispatcher, I hated the cold air blowers, seemed pretty useless.  As for propane, when your heaters are out in the boonies, you worry about running out of fuel.  Believe me, it happens way too much.  Electrics were slow to melt snow, and when you turned them off, the melted snow, having not been blown away, would puddle up and then freeze the switches.  Natural gas when hooked up to a gas line were the best.

NS has placed/replaced switch point heaters at every interlocking across Northern Indiana from Ohio to Chicago. They are propane powered with blowers. The interesting ones are the ones set up for the middle track. The heater is off to the side of the mains and there is a pipe run under the tracks that emerges on the next middle track. Most of the heaters are adjacent to the track they serve - but there are several set up for the middle track.

I hope propane works. Otherwise the investment in equipment and installation will go to waste.

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Years ago, Conrail and NJ Transit used small
> flame
> > propane switch heaters in Hoboken.  Late at
> night
> > you could see the dozens / hundreds of tiny
> flames
> > out in the yard.  Lovely sight, but as noted
> in
> > an earlier post, probably created a huge fire
> > risk.
>
>
> Not at all. What's to burn? The ties? You just
> don't put the fire against the ties and it's all
> fine. Open flame has been used to heat switches
> for over a century.
>
> It's just another excuse for we can't. 
>
> TAW


the insulator pads between the concrete tie clips and the rail melt and cause TOLs ...

a buddy of mine working Midway interlocking on tbe NEC in the 70s was burned lighting a propane heater and it blew up ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/17 15:35 by Out_Of_Service.

Yes, I wondered about gas build up. But, with thousands of locations for decades, it's a credit to every one that there aren't more problems.

Posted from Android

I wonder how many dispatchers still have control over switch heaters.
One way the company was able to cut down on the gas use was to make
them turn on automatically.  Another was to put them under signal maintainer
control.  More than once the day maintainer went home during a snow storm and 
never bothered to turn them on.   

I don't know if this still the case, but NJ Transit paid Amtrak for switch tenders to be available at SWIFT in Kearny during storms.

No tender, no Midtown Direct. The tender keeps an eye on the heaters and assure the system works as intended.

Posted from Android