Eastern Railroad Discussion > The Howard Street Tunnel enlargement is green lighted!!

This is what the Baltimore Sun Newspaper reported this evening!!

https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-md-csx-howard-street-tunnel-20181213-story.html

Good news for the Port of Baltimore!

Now let's get on with the big infrastructure project and replace the Amtrak tunnels.........

Then they have to do the tunnel in Philly to complete the circuit and be able to double stack the entire route.

So what changed?  Will the state accept this "offer" ?  

Tominde Wrote:
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> So what changed?  Will the state accept this
> "offer" ?  

Well, for one thing, the CEO.
-Ted

CSX walked away but left a Foote in the door so to speak...

CSX is back because if CSX can get double stack clearance in Balt and Philly then it would be a big kick in the groin to NS...

The article says the Howard St tunnel clearance project is not fully funded as publicly sourced dollars are not yet in place:

"...=18pxThe $91 million CSX has committed is less than what the railroad had offered earlier. The railroad and the state had agreed to split $270 million of the project’s costs when it was first announced...“Our administration has been in close contact with CSX throughout this process, and we welcome them back to the table to work together and get it done,” Amelia Chasse said. “Our administration stands ready to work with our federal partners to secure the resources we need to to get this critical project back on track."..."

So this may not yet be a done deal...

If there is really a lot of container business originating currently at the Port of Baltimore that could use CSX rails, such traffic would already be moving in CSX trains single stacked. Is this the case?

I have 2 questions perhaps can be answered as I know little of freight movements in this area.  CSX has seemed to always have a big advantage over NS  due to the mergers and acquisitions prior to the CR split.  With that said,  
1. What needs to happen in Philly to compliment the Howard Street project, and at what expense?  Can CSX only do the Howard Street project and not the Philly one, still achieving their goal of double stacks?
2. How does NS compete now, and what can they do proactively to combat a "kick in the groin" as mentioned above?
Thank you,
Rich S 

NS competes now using the inland gateway (Harrisburg, H-Line, B-Line, Piedmont).  Good domestic double stack route but much longer than what CSX would be if tunnel clearances solved (DC complete, Balt and Philly to go).   NS has huge share of the NY-FL/GA business now but could lose some/most to CSX if CSX route becomes fully double-stackable...

NS once held almost all of the Norfolk-Chicago traffic (sea boxes and domestic), but once CSX was able to double-stack their route through DC they gained a huge chunk of that traffic.  Same could happen on NY/NJ-FL/GA domestic container traffic...  That's the potential kick to NS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/18 07:40 by CSX602.

JPB Wrote:
> If there is really a lot of container business
> originating currently at the Port of Baltimore
> that could use CSX rails, such traffic would
> already be moving in CSX trains single stacked. Is
> this the case?

It isn't really the port business, but the domestic NY-FL/GA business that the clearance issue is limiting...  BUT the better service to the port is just the key to getting MD $$

CSX602 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NS competes now using the inland gateway
> (Harrisburg, H-Line, B-Line, Piedmont).  Good
> double stack route but much longer than what CSX
> would be if tunnel clearances solved (DC complete,
> Balt and Philly to go).   NS has huge share of
> the NY-FL/GA business now but could lose some/most
> to CSX if CSX route becomes fully
> double-stackable...
>
> NS once held almost all of the Norfolk-Chicago
> traffic, but once CSX was able to double-stack
> their route they gained a huge chunk of that
> traffic.  Same could happen NY-FL/GA...  That's
> the potential kick.

Do you have numbers to back any of that up? For example, where is the huge volume moving between NY and Florida (both of which are consuming regions)?

What stops CSX from "kicking" NS out of Baltimore today since neither can use stacks?

Posted from Android

Didn't we conclude that Norfolk to rail to the midwest was days faster than the extra day of sailing time to Baltimore, then rail to the midwest?

Posted from Android

The tunnel under the Philadelphia Art Museum is the remaining height restriction after Howard Street. IIRC there's not much distance between the tunnel and the surface there, and it's also pretty close to the water table.

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The tunnel under the Philadelphia Art Museum is
> the remaining height restriction after Howard
> Street. IIRC there's not much distance between the
> tunnel and the surface there, and it's also pretty
> close to the water table.

Are there any viable alternatives?

Posted from Android

CSXT can get around the Art Museum Tunnel via the Arsenal Connection and the High Line that passes by Amtrak's 30th Street Station.

NYSWSD70M Wrote:

> Do you have numbers to back any of that up? For
> example, where is the huge volume moving between
> NY and Florida (both of which are consuming
> regions)?

NS trains 203/204 and 211/212/213/214...  NY/NJ-FL/GA is such a heavy domestic container corridor that NS has those 3 pairs of daily trains and runs extras occasionally.   If it were not such a busy corridor then NS would not have all of those daily trains (maybe just one pair or combine with 201/202).   That is the primary traffic at stake if CSX gets domestic double stack clearance on the DC-Philly section.   It isn't really about the Port of Baltimore, except that CSX can say it will help that Port too and thus try to get MD money.

CSX602 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NYSWSD70M Wrote:
>
> > Do you have numbers to back any of that up? For
> > example, where is the huge volume moving
> between
> > NY and Florida (both of which are consuming
> > regions)?
>
> NS trains 203/204 and 211/212/213/214... 
> NY/NJ-FL/GA is such a heavy domestic container
> corridor that NS has those 3 pairs of daily trains
> and runs extras occasionally.   If it were not
> such a busy corridor then NS would not have all of
> those daily trains (maybe just one pair or combine
> with 201/202).   That is the primary traffic at
> stake if CSX gets domestic double stack clearance
> on the DC-Philly section.   It isn't really
> about the Port of Baltimore, except that CSX can
> say it will help that Port too and thus try to get
> MD money.

Most of that business is NY metro to/from GA. NS has a big advantage going to the Atlanta market even without the tunnel issue. NS has been at it for years and has three train pairs.

I still don't see the big opportunity in intermodal FL to/from NY. Yes there are plenty of trucks on I95 but few are conversion canidates since they do not share those origin/destination pairs.

Posted from Android

All work in Philly is done to allow doublestacks and auto racks both into the South Philly yard (Greenwich) and to bypass Philly terminal onwards to North Jersey.  As some have stated the routing is by the "High Line" route from 58th street to Belmont.  "Boon" tunnel in Darby has been undercut, but in typical CSX fashion only #1 track between 58th st and Darby has been clearenced so every train has to confirm with dispatch if they have high cars and if a train is parked on #1 track (very common with the sever lack of crews Philly has...) then no high cars going past 58th st.

CSX602 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JPB Wrote:
> > If there is really a lot of container business
> > originating currently at the Port of Baltimore
> > that could use CSX rails, such traffic would
> > already be moving in CSX trains single stacked.
> Is
> > this the case?
>
> It isn't really the port business, but the
> domestic NY-FL/GA business that the clearance
> issue is limiting...  BUT the better service to
> the port is just the key to getting MD $$

Sweet, more corporate welfare for a company that's been screwing the customers, employees, and communities all in the name of getting their Wall Street friends even more richer!

spwolfmtn Wrote:
> Sweet, more corporate welfare for a company that's
> been screwing the customers, employees, and
> communities all in the name of getting their Wall
> Street friends even more richer!

NS is the king at that...  long before EHH was at CSX and now after...
Just look at all the money they got from VA for improvements to N&W lines in VA (that were supoosed to take trucks of I-81 corridor - but never did - on a line NS now wants to sell off) and now the HQ move at the expense of GA and Atlanta taxpayers...

Time for some to grow up and face the reality that ALL railroads work for their shareholders... not the employees or customers.