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Eastern Railroad Discussion > Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there


Date: 03/25/20 13:02
Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: TAW

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/mow/news/CREATE-partners-receive-CRISI-grant-for-Pullman-Junction-project--60055

TAW
 



Date: 03/25/20 13:09
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: cabsignaldrop

Can't get the link to work, is that the connection off the old NKP ROW down to the IC/CN main line a few miles north of Kensington?

Posted from Android



Date: 03/25/20 13:45
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: shadetree

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/mow/news/CREATE-partners-receive-CRISI-grant-for-Pullman-Junction-project--60055

How soon will this kick off?

Eng.Shadetree



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/20 13:47 by shadetree.



Date: 03/25/20 13:59
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: bh35226

Try this link  and look for project EW3, Pullman Junction. There is a PDF that has map and description.

http://createprogram.org/projects.htm

 



Date: 03/25/20 17:43
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: halfmoonharold

cabsignaldrop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can't get the link to work, is that the connection
> off the old NKP ROW down to the IC/CN main line a
> few miles north of Kensington?
>
> Posted from Android

Try the link above. This is project P4, Grand Crossing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/20 17:44 by halfmoonharold.



Date: 03/25/20 20:08
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

A lot of political heavy hitters in the press release
http://createprogram.org/press_releases/mar24-2020.pdf
Dick Durbin of Illinois (never) High Speed Chicago - St. Louis fame.
Toni Preckwinkle of C(r)ook county soda pop tax fame.
 
Notable by his absence is Illinois Senator Martin Sandoval who was a prominent attendee
at the Englewood flyover dedication.  He is nearest the camera in the video at :30.
U.S. congressman Lipinski is the tall guy behind Sandoval.  Lipinski lost his primary
so he will no longer be around to help the railroads to the taxpayer's money.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-metra-englewood-flyover-20141023-story.html

Sandoval was "the influential chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee" until he pleaded
guilty to receiving bribes in a red light camera scheme.
https://www.npr.org/local/309/2020/01/28/800487607/former-illinois-state-sen-martin-sandoval-pleads-guilty-to-bribery-tax-evasion
 
A lot of outright lies in the CREATE "Fact Sheet"
http://createprogram.org/factsheets/EW3.pdf
 
"Trains traveling east on the BRC toward the NS Chicago Subdivision often must wait for cross
traffic to clear, creating main line congestion."

I have been gone a few years but I doubt the cross traffic situation on the BRC at Pullman Jct.
has changed much.  The NS went across the diamond maybe once a month to Verson Steel.
The only delay for eastbound trains on the BRC at Pullman are the eastbound trains ahead
waiting for the NS to give them a signal onto the Chicago Line at CP 509.
 
"Trains traveling westward off the NS Chicago Subdivision are also delayed due to congestion on the BRC.
The additional main line track will provide additional capacity for through movements around the trains
waiting to access the NS Chicago Subdivision."

Here they are admitting that  congestion on the Chicago Line is blocking eastbound trains.  Instead of
addressing the issue of the single track connection at CP 509 let's build another track on the BRC.
 
"Additional track and signal upgrades at Pullman Junction will allow greater flexibility and access
to four existing main line tracks west of Pullman Junction."

The inflexibility at Pullman Jct. was created in the 1980's by the "Men Who Made Love to the Railroads".
They were the spiritual predecessors of EHH.  They loved to save a few thousand dollars by leaving
a power switch out here and there and making single track connections.
 
Almost twenty million dollars to undo what the NS did to itself.
In the spirit of the nation's present crisis have the pols included some mechanism in the grants
to insure that the money saved by the NS will not be used to buy back stock?????
 
Back in the day when the passengers trains of five railroads moved through Pullman
the railroads were fine with a switchtender operation instead of spending money
to interlock it.  When the N&W took the tracks over from the C&WI they interlocked it
on the cheap.  Why should I help pay for it to be “Nickel Plated” now?
 
Enter “9400 south Stony Island Avenue Chicago” in your favorite satellite view to
get the bird’s eye view.
 
Photo 1
Looking east from Pullman Jct. down the ex-Rock Island tracks. 
The Chicago Short Line bought a portion of the tracks after
the shut down.  The CSL is now the South Chicago & Indiana Harbor R.R.
The CRL uses these tracks to deliver to BRC Commercial Ave. yard
at the Rock Island Jct. end. Trains running on these
tracks are referred to as “going down the Short Line”. The NS can also use the
tracks to handle trains from the  Chicago Line going to the CN ex-IC connection
at 95th St. or to back into Calumet Yard.
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/20 20:19 by Englewood.




Date: 03/25/20 20:09
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

Photo 2.
Moving west from the spot in photo 1 is the crossing of the ex-CRI&P tracks
with the NS Verson Lead.  The Verson Lead is what remains of the NKP main
line to Grand Crossing, NYC JN tower, Englewood and LaSalle St. station.
According to the CREATE blurb this is a source of serious delays.  Perhaps
they think the NKP passenger trains still cross here.
 




Date: 03/25/20 20:10
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

Photo 3.
Here we look north at the Verson Lead crossing of the BRC mains.
 




Date: 03/25/20 20:10
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

Photo 4.
Turning around and looking south we see where the Verson Lead
connects to the current NS ex C&WI tracks. The NS main comes out
of Calumet yard and curves off to the right.
 




Date: 03/25/20 20:11
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

Photo 5.
This picks up the tracks from the right hand edge of photo 4.
All this sophisticated track work was what the N&W considered
sufficient when they had to pay for it.
 




Date: 03/25/20 20:12
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

Photo 6.
Here we can really see the result of the N&W capacity constraint project.
Only one train at a time can move through the junction.
The two ex-C&WI mains from the west come together at a power switch.
 
To further constrain capacity the connection to the BRC is a hand throw on
the NS end and a power switch on the BRC.  A utility man must come out
of Calumet yard to line the switch back behind a train.  See that NS train
sitting there?  It is either waiting for a recrew or being held out of Calumet yard.
Let’s put in a government paid for third track so we have another track to hold trains on.
 
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/20 04:31 by Englewood.




Date: 03/25/20 20:51
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

Look over on the Passenger Board to see how the Englewood Flyover
made the NS fluid..
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4984081

Money well spent.  Couldn't dispatch p*** out of a boot.



Date: 03/26/20 06:01
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: inCHI

Thanks for all the photos and the explanation. From my entirely non-professional observation, it does seem improvments to the BRC connection to the Chicago Line would be far more significant. Or perhaps more than that, restoring a third track across one of the abandoned Calumet River Lift bridges. When it comes to the BRC connection, the triple track at 509 doesn't help that much when the connection is still off the double track, and long freights slowly wind through it, creating a chokepoint on the double track.



Date: 03/26/20 09:32
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: TAW

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does Metra use any of these tracks?  If no, why
> should there be any government role?  From the
> CREATE website it appears all of the work is
> freight related and inside yards.

Freight railroads often bury needed capacity projects in passenger projects after appropriately opposing them for cover. That could be a book, but it would probably be a boring read for most and never cover the cost of printing.

The scope in Chicago was so great that the passenger strategy wouldn't work for a lot of it, so CREATE became a program for the general economic benefit to the Chicago area by reducing congestion and delay and reducing crossing blockage, reducing locomotive emissions, etc.

TAW



Date: 03/26/20 10:00
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does Metra use any of these tracks? 

NO. Belt Jct.  is the closest conflict point with 
Metra and they already have the 75th St. Corridor
plan to take care of that.

If no, why
> should there be any government role? 

My point exactly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/20 10:01 by Englewood.



Date: 03/26/20 12:46
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: halfmoonharold

Very informative post, Mr. Englewood. Do you know the year N&W redid Pullman Jct. by chance? Must have been late '70's - early '80's???



Date: 03/26/20 17:01
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: TAW

In the subject, I referred to what used to be. Here it is. You can see in the difference between this and Englewood's pictures that the industry crippled itself then looked for someone else to fix it.

Edit: I added a second drawing showing what's left superimposed over what was.

It has happened in other places too. We did some of that in Seattle to accommodate Sounder and the Cascades trains. BN was happy with the parking lot they created until the passenger folks came along and couldn't deal with the situation. (At one time, it could take six hours to get from Tukwila to Interbay, but on another day, it might be an hour or two. There was no way to predict. We convinced them to put on a train dispatcher position, which got rid of a lot of the delays, but there were still a lot due to just not enough track.)

TAW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/20 18:50 by TAW.






Date: 03/27/20 07:20
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: RRTom

Thanks for the schematics, along with Englewood's photos makes the situation easy to understand.

One more time for anyone who still missed what happened: The railroads used their cash for stock buybacks instead of projects like this, but the government is paying for it/bailing them out so the corporate execs and Wall St. are going to profit.



Date: 03/27/20 08:05
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Englewood

halfmoonharold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very informative post, Mr. Englewood. Do you know
> the year N&W redid Pullman Jct. by chance? Must
> have been late '70's - early '80's???

I don't know the answer to that.  I was not involved with railroading
in that part of the city at that time. I will try to find my NS Lake Divn.
ETT's and see when it begins to be shown as an interlocking.

The answer is probably related to when the ex-Monon was truncated
at Munster and their trains began to use the GTW to Thornton Jct. to access
Yard Center. I believe the L&N trains from Yard Center to Hammond
to access the remaining industries north of Munster were what kept
the C&WI open through Pullman Jct. I recall reading somewhere that
the L&N also used the C&WI to deliver coal trains to the South Shore at
Burnham during the late 70's or early 80's.
 
N&W ended up buying the C&WI from the BRC connection at 81st St.
to a point adjacent to the south end of Calumet Yd.

A little known fact is that the NS also purchased one of the BRC mains between
81st St. and Belt Jct.  This lets the NS operate from Calumet to Landers without
paying wheelage to anyone.  The NS owned track between 81st St. and Belt Jct.
is dispatched by the BRC.

EDIT
While looking for an answer to your question, which I did not yet find, I did
find two good websites with Pullman Jct. info/pictures.

https://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2016/07/pullman-junction-nkpc-branch-vs-crlrock.html

https://www.flickr.com/groups/pullman_junction/pool/rrradioman/page1



 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/20 12:03 by Englewood.



Date: 03/27/20 08:20
Re: Pullman Jct - 80: putting back some of what used to be there
Author: Lackawanna484

RRTom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the schematics, along with Englewood's
> photos makes the situation easy to understand.
>
> One more time for anyone who still missed what
> happened: The railroads used their cash for stock
> buybacks instead of projects like this, but the
> government is paying for it/bailing them out so
> the corporate execs and Wall St. are going to
> profit.

The Wall Street Journal has a small piece on that precise issue this morning.  The House provision to provide limits on stock buybacks, dividends, and executive bonuses with the bailout funds was removed from the Senate version. So, the version the House will vote on no longer has these restrictions.

The WSJ observes that K Street lobbyists spotted the provision right away, and put pressure on members of both parties to remove it.  Namcy Pelosi didn't have the votes in her caucus to defeat it, and didn't want to go into the weekend blocking the bill that has been forever in debate.



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