Eastern Railroad Discussion > drunk csx engineer

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/09/15-ntsb-engineer-in-2019-csx-collision-in-ohio-was-intoxicated

Hunter Harrison a contributing factor

dan Wrote:
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> Hunter Harrison a contributing factor


MANY THINGS can cause someone to turn to alcohol...

Posted from Android

ns1000 Wrote:

> MANY THINGS can cause someone to turn to
> alcohol...
>
> Posted from Android

True - but  no one is implying EHH drove the engineer to drink.  Rather, the FRA and NTSB specifically called out EHH's policies as a contributing factor.  

Directly from the article    The FRA told the NTSB that deficiencies in CSX’s drug and alcohol testing program were traced in part to then-CEO E. Hunter Harrison’s implementation of Precision Scheduled Railroading, which resulted in a 22% reduction in the railroad’s employment levels, including among the field-level operations personnel who were supposed to administer the tests.“Hunter Harrison essentially squeezed the life out of this railroad, for what — to return billions of dollars to a hedge fund and the shareholders. And in return, it created safety issues,” NTSB board member Jennifer Homendy said.

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/20 05:05 by scraphauler.

The sad thing is the "squeezing the life out of the railroad(s)" is STILL going on. And I'm NOT necessarily talking about CSX....

I've said this before...

You need a STRONG mind and body and an IMMUNITY to BS to survive now...

And before someone says I'm trying to "imply" something involving the person in question, I'm NOT...

Just trying to make a point.

Posted from Android

I have a cousin who is an engineer, and I swear every time I see him (usually a year or two between get togethers)he is drunk.

Now when I see him he is on vacation and not working, and he is a high functioning drunk, but still the guy drinks a lot more than any normal person.

I’m not saying he goes to work drunk either, I’m just saying the lifestyle of being an engineer seems to lend itself to creating an excessive drinking habit at least for him.

Dan

Posted from iPhone

Try reconciling these two statements:
NTSB: "The engineer who was impaired in the Carey wreck had not been tested for alcohol use in the previous five years, or for drug use in the prior 10 years"
CSX: "The unfortunate human error that caused this incident is not representative of CSX’s safety culture which emphasizes regulatory compliance..." 
/Ted

At its core, the system relies on an individual taking responsibility for reporting to work in a safe physical state.

Corollaries like random drug testing, alcohol and drug awareness, company posters, etc don't substitute for the individual taking responsibility and supervisors / fellow crew members being aware. The report the engineer was drinking on the job would scare the hell out of me if I had to go between the cars to hook up hoses, etc with him or her at the throttle

Airlines test pilots and crew members at far greater frequency than railroads test their crews. And still encounter folks who should not be flying.  Testing doesn't cause the drunken activity, but more of it will document how many people are suffering from the disease. Just like sleep apnea with engineers, lousy work-sleep cycles, stress, and all the other factors which hurt individuals just trying to earn a living.

I'm wondering how this guy could be five times the legal limit and his co-workers NOT know it.  If they were covering for him, they were fools to let him operate in that condition.  I know in the old days I have heard stories of the fireman running the engine because the engineer was too drunk, but in today's world, you don't really have enough people to do that.  If this guy was THAT drunk and could still function, he was a pretty heavy duty drinker and people HAD to know.

I was thinking the same thing.   If he drank before work, how many times the legal limit was he then? 7 or 8 times?

junctiontower Wrote:
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> I'm wondering how this guy could be five times the
> legal limit and his co-workers NOT know it.  If
> they were covering for him, they were fools to let
> him operate in that condition.  I know in the old
> days I have heard stories of the fireman running
> the engine because the engineer was too drunk, but
> in today's world, you don't really have enough
> people to do that.  If this guy was THAT drunk
> and could still function, he was a pretty heavy
> duty drinker and people HAD to know.

I believe flight crews have a legal duty to report somebody they believe to be unfit to fly.

Posted from Android

These days all that matters is the dollar sign ($$$), not the assurence of one's safety, in feels like. So sad...

Well after the Max FAA announcement this week, wonder if we will hear from FRA Ron Batory? Under his watch this all happened the lack of overview by the FRA and CSX is making things very dangerous. For that matter in the last 5 years I've been randomed 3 times. For a guy to go that long (5 and 10 years) is unbelievable. The FRA has been favorable to the wishes of the Carriers for a long time, when they going to do their job or do we have a FAA situation to look forward to?

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/20 10:04 by 20yearrrman.

cjvrr Wrote:
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> I was thinking the same thing.   If he drank
> before work, how many times the legal limit was he
> then? 7 or 8 times?
>
> junctiontower Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm wondering how this guy could be five times
> the
> > legal limit and his co-workers NOT know it. 
> If
> > they were covering for him, they were fools to
> let
> > him operate in that condition.  I know in the
> old
> > days I have heard stories of the fireman
> running
> > the engine because the engineer was too drunk,
> but
> > in today's world, you don't really have enough
> > people to do that.  If this guy was THAT drunk
> > and could still function, he was a pretty heavy
> > duty drinker and people HAD to know.

True people probably did know that he was a heavy drinker but when one drinks that much they build up a big tolerance. Being 5 times over the limit would darn near, if not, render a "normal drinker" unconscious.

I know a recovering alcoholic who had a BAC over .3 and could function pretty normally.

I was subject to random drug testing and for a number of years I also held a position where I also had to have an annual physical where a sample was collected for drug testing. So I was tested at least annually while in that position.  If alcoholism was suspected a manager could request a medical exam. Did not have to done while person was thought to be intoxicated. 

Do engineers and conductors have a mandated periodic physical that includes drug test?

 

It's an allusion. "Functioning Alcoholic." It will catch up with him. He'll either start drinking on the job, or be under the influence when he shows up for work. It’s likely he’ll die of a disease caused by the alcoholism. I am old enough to have worked with or known of individuals (some relatives) that followed that path. Meanwhile, his personal life will get wrecked and the pain will be felt by others. But only he can make a decision to change his life. 


Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

dschlegel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a cousin who is an engineer, and I swear
> every time I see him (usually a year or two
> between get togethers)he is drunk.
>
> Now when I see him he is on vacation and not
> working, and he is a high functioning drunk, but
> still the guy drinks a lot more than any normal
> person.
>
> I’m not saying he goes to work drunk either,
> I’m just saying the lifestyle of being an
> engineer seems to lend itself to creating an
> excessive drinking habit at least for him.
>
> Dan
>
> Posted from iPhone

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's an allusion. "Functioning Alcoholic." It will
> catch up with him. He'll either start drinking on
> the job, or be under the influence when he shows
> up for work. It’s likely he’ll die of a
> disease caused by the alcoholism. I am old enough
> to have worked with or known of individuals (some
> relatives) that followed that path. Meanwhile, his
> personal life will get wrecked and the pain will
> be felt by others. But only he can make a decision
> to change his life. 
>
>
> Victor A. Baird
> http://www.erstwhilepublications.com
>

Agreed with your functional alcoholic assessment, I’ve known several myself and their lives are not good whether it’s health or relationships being wrecked.

His personal life is an absolute train wreck (no pun intended). But he’s been a selfish person most of his life anyway and doesn’t seem to care for anyone but himself. I’m glad he lives out of state so I don’t have to have run-ins with him too often.

Dan

Most of the old heads back in the day always had a half pint in their coveralls. I can remember regularly smelling alcohol on a engineer's breath I knew. He taught me a lot over the years and I only remember once he got busted for speeding and Southern was bad about hiding in the woods with radar guns in the 60's. He was #2 in seniority when he retired and ran passenger trains for the last 10 years of his career, he was a good hand.

I am guessing that a common cause may be the irregular sleep/wake cycles. This can go on and on, broken up only by vacations. When you have to wake up and GO, you reach for coffee. Fine, you wake up, and make your run. Then you get to the hotel, and it's time to sleep right now. No time to waste, you'll be called on your rest. BUT, you drank a ton of coffee to get over the road. So, reach for a drink to shut off the caffeine and get to sleep quick. You can see how this could easily become a habit. Try waking up without caffeine sometime. Not easy, when you didn't get enough sleep! Can't risk falling asleep at work. So, you fall into a cycle of substance use to keep going. I am glad I never had to work irregular hours. I DID work nights for years, and I had to eventually go decaf because the caffeiene I thought I needed was wrecking my health. Not excusing drinking on the job, just explaining how people can develop a drinking problem on the railroad, 

halfmoonharold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am guessing that a common cause may be the
> irregular sleep/wake cycles. This can go on and
> on, broken up only by vacations. When you have to
> wake up and GO, you reach for coffee. Fine, you
> wake up, and make your run. Then you get to the
> hotel, and it's time to sleep right now. No time
> to waste, you'll be called on your rest. BUT, you
> drank a ton of coffee to get over the road. So,
> reach for a drink to shut off the caffeine and get
> to sleep quick. You can see how this could easily
> become a habit. Try waking up without caffeine
> sometime. Not easy, when you didn't get enough
> sleep! Can't risk falling asleep at work. So, you
> fall into a cycle of substance use to keep going.
> I am glad I never had to work irregular hours. I
> DID work nights for years, and I had to eventually
> go decaf because the caffeiene I thought I needed
> was wrecking my health. Not excusing drinking on
> the job, just explaining how people can develop a
> drinking problem on the railroad, 

A retired Greyhound-later-truck driver discribed his life as that. He drove through the 40s-60s.

TAW