Eastern Railroad Discussion > Thermal detectors should be on every bearing.

Any one with a new car have air pressures sensors within their tires.  The spin of the wheels generates a little electricity that transmit a message to the car sensor and then the dash board.

Many readers might have a woodstove on which they have purchased and used a Gala heat driven fan. The base of this fan which sits on the hot stove also contains a dual metal which when hot creates a electric current that run a fan to blows the hot air into the room sideways. 

A unit with that dual metal can make electricity to power a small radio that would make a distress message: only car initial and number, when a car bearing get very hot.  The 8 units of thermal sensors would be attached to the top of every bearing of every car and be thermal activated only when very hot.  That radio message can be relayed by transmitters for greater range as needed.                                                                                                    
 Rather than the thermal hot box detectors being spaced miles apart, they should be built into or on every roller bearing for instant detection of the decaying bearing.  From the hundreds of social media messaging here, I am really shocked that no one has called for the roller bearing to have a sensor on the bearing to radio its own status of operating condition. Let see if there is more intelligence here on TO so we can move ahead than there are naysayer.    

This sensor might even be as small as a computer chip or pack gum and as cheap.   
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/23 12:00 by PlyWoody.

Hasnt the NTSB recomended dual metal technology for the aircraft industry on some bearings in engines?  And did Amtrak also consider this on some of their locomotives?  But this sounds like its got some neat capabilites as you described.

md Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hasnt the NTSB recomended dual metal technology
> for the aircraft industry on some bearings in
> engines?  And did Amtrak also consider this on
> some of their locomotives? 

Amtrak specified Traction Motor suspension bearing temperature monitors on their early SDP40F units. Eventually the system turned into a disaster in the sever winter environment on the BN. The vast majorities of the "temp indications" were related to the damned sensors!

More and more "low tire pressures alarms" on modern automobiles are found to be sensor issues, and NOT actually "low tire pressure". Putting such devices/systems on every single freight car would be a gross waste of money and technological resources.


But this sounds like
> its got some neat capabilites as you described.

I agree that on-board detectors is the way to go.

yeah false positives get troublesome,

md Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yeah false positives get troublesome,

We have some much instrumentation everywhere, they will get it worked out. 

The mess of a system we have now has been proven lacking.

md Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yeah false positives get troublesome,

There is no electricity to transmit false positive if there is no high heat.  No battery to supply power. 

"Money talks and nobody walks". If the cost of a sensor on every bearing comes out of a bearing manufacturer's, a car builder's, a car leaser's, a railroad owner', etc. blah, blah, blah, bank account, it will eventually come out of YOUR pocket. How willing are you to ante-up? One bearing in millions, on a passive load car, takes out hazardous freight. Questionable decisions made the releasing of many toxins, that have not been found in monitoring of the local air and water quality, has led to serious, I use the term loosely, "News".
Just, shut down the railroads and put that freight on canal boats and Conestoga wagons where it will be safe in quantities, so small that the products we use daily will no longer be viable and we can all grow our own food, spin wool, knit our own clothing and learn in one room schoolhouses.
 Media Hype, Crap (softest term I can think of) Politics and Over-zealous environmentalists will destroy life as we know it. "Money talks and nobody walks".
In a former post I described ultrasound detection developments, even better than waiting for temperature to develop, lets go the full nine-yards and cost of even much earlier detection methodology. 
"Even more money talks and nobody walks".
The entire East Palestine scenario is so way far out of reason at this point that I hesitate to post anything. I struggled to even add this.
A dearly departed railfan friend once said, "And this too will pass". Hopefully in my lifetime!
Gonut

Gonut you need to watch more western movies.  Those wagons had lots of broken axles..
RB

These bi-metal detectors are not exactly new technology.  100 years ago they were known as thermocouples.  60 years ago, the X-15 Mach 6+ rocket airplane had thermocouples welded to its internal skin surfaces and structure.  They basically measure the temperature continuosly at the spot where it is attached.  That measured difference of potential between the two wires creates a voltage that is proportional to the temperature.  Each type of thermocouple has its own calibration.  The temperature data must then be recorded or transmitted (i.e.on-board recorder or telemetery).  The objective of somebody on the railroad knowing very quickly when a bearing reaches a limit temperature will require that each car has a system that can transmit an alarm signal (maybe to the engineer?) when any one its 8 bearings overheats.  That could be encoded to identify the axle on the train.  I don't know what the cost of instrumenting a railroad car with a safety system like this might be, but it would seem that if HAZMAT cars were so equipped, that would at least be a step in the right direction.  Perhaps even cars which will exceed some speed.  When compared to the overall cost of the car and the amount of money made with the car over time, the cost might not seem too bad.  But, all systems like this will require maintenance to ensure accuracy.  This means more manpower, which railroads would like to eliminate.

Gonut1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Money talks and nobody walks". If the cost of a
> sensor on every bearing comes out of a bearing
> manufacturer's, a car builder's, a car leaser's, a
> railroad owner', etc. blah, blah, blah, bank
> account, it will eventually come out of YOUR
> pocket. ...

And so will the cost of E. Palestine. That cost will ultimately make the cost of equipping the fleet look like peanuts.

Tech is already out there. Just has to be installed.

https://www.amsteddigital.com/technology/

From Railway Age Aug 15th 2022 issue
HItachi RailHitachi Rail has partnered with Dutch supplier Intermodal Telematics (IMT) to offer a railcar telematics solution, combining technology from IMT and British rail technology firm Perpetuum, which Hitachi acquired in April 2021, “with the global scale and rail expertise of Hitachi Rail,” the company says. Hitachi Rail is using remote condition monitoring systems on fleets in North America, Australia and across the world. By installing digitally connected sensors on a variety of critical train components, the company says it is helping operators identify wear and tear remotely, provide insight into the performance of critical assets, and pinpoint and fix faults before they impact operations.“Our technology is helping passenger and freight rail operators to improve performance, reduce their maintenance costs and enhance safety,” the company notes. “Hitachi Rail is pioneering an entirely digitally connected transport system that can be optimized to be more efficient, reliable and sustainable.”“We are excited to be bringing our new railcar monitoring solution to North America with our partner, IMT,” adds Miles Metschke, Head of Freight Rail for Hitachi Rail, North America. “The combined products, software and capabilities of both companies creates a best-in-class solution for railcar owners, rail shippers and railroads.”Both Hitachi Rail (Perpetuum) and IMT, which have been working together for several years as co-members of the IEEE Intelligent Transportation Systems Society (ITSS) practice group for railcar telematics in Europe, say they see close collaboration as the means of bringing a broader suite of telematics driven benefits to the freight rail market in a faster and more cost-efficient manner. The full rail telematic solution provides gateways and sensors with proven technology and data processing capabilities. It includes:

• Communications Gateway (CLT20-Ex) – a communication terminal (gateway) that monitors the geographic position of the railcar, the movement and motion (shocks and normal movement) of the railcar, and the temperature of the gateway device.
• OC19-Ex – a hatch, door and brake sensor that detects the position of hatches and doors on tank cars and covered hoppers by measuring the angle of the sensor on the door, and on the position of hand brakes on bell crank style brake systems.
• LU19-Ex – a load/unload sensor that detects the loading state of railcars by measuring the displacement of a railcar on its trucks, which is usually determined by the weight of the material in the railcar.
• WASN2-43 – a truck condition health (vibration) sensor that monitors the condition of the railcar wheels, bearings and axles at the truck level. This sensor, which is powered via harvested vibration energy from the railcar and converted to electrical energy, uses vibration data to determine the overall health of the truck components and can determine when a component needs to be inspected, maintained or replaced.
• WT19-Ex – a digital, non-intrusive temperature sensor for tank cars used to monitor the temperature of a tank’s contents and send the measured temperature values wirelessly to the CLT20-Ex, which in turn transmits the sensor data to the software platform back-end where it can be accessed remotely via a web application.
• PS20-Ex – a pressure sensor that is to be used together with third-party, compatible pressure transmitters to create a digital pressure sensing solution for tank cars. Its purpose is to monitor the pressure inside of a tank car and to send the measured values wirelessly to  a CLT20-Ex, which in turn transmits the sensor data to the software platform where it can be accessed remotely via Hitachi’s web application.

As part of the overall system architecture, the software backend platform is used to collect and manage data from the CLT20-Ex Gateway devices. This software, which is designed to be integrated in the existing IT infrastructure of Hitachi Rail customers, is described as “a mature platform that provides several capabilities required for railcar telematics.”A two-way flow of data is made possible by the RESTful Application Programming Interface (API), which allows its customers to feed in other IT systems, such as TMS, ERP, CLM and asset base data. The software API allows access to all device and sensor data together with processed data, such as statuses and events.



PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any one with a new car have air pressures sensors
> within their tires.  The spin of the wheels
> generates a little electricity that transmit a
> message to the car sensor and then the dash
> board.
>
> Many readers might have a woodstove on which they
> have purchased and used a Gala heat driven fan.
> The base of this fan which sits on the hot stove
> also contains a dual metal which when hot creates
> a electric current that run a fan to blows the hot
> air into the room sideways. 
>
> A unit with that dual metal can make electricity
> to power a small radio that would make a distress
> message: only car initial and number, when a car
> bearing get very hot.  The 8 units of thermal
> sensors would be attached to the top of every
> bearing of every car and be thermal activated only
> when very hot.  That radio message can be relayed
> by transmitters for greater range as needed. 
>                          
>                          
>                          
>                        
>  Rather than the thermal hot box detectors being
> spaced miles apart, they should be built into or
> on every roller bearing for instant detection of
> the decaying bearing.  From the hundreds of
> social media messaging here, I am really shocked
> that no one has called for the roller bearing to
> have a sensor on the bearing to radio its own
> status of operating condition. Let see if there is
> more intelligence here on TO so we can move ahead
> than there are naysayer.    
>
> This sensor might even be as small as a computer
> chip or pack gum and as cheap.   
>  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/23 20:30 by Mojacket.

Well,
ts1457,
I personally don't think so. But time will tell. Nothing much permanent environmentally happened in East Palestine according to scientific evidence, at least reported to date, but again time will tell. Much worse disasters have occurred but this one is much more visible, political and will remain controversial as to the disposition of the dangerous cargo cars.I will now no longer respond to any of this East Palestine HYPE.
Gonut

Gonut1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well,
> ts1457,
> I personally don't think so. But time will tell.
> Nothing much permanent environmentally happened in
> East Palestine according to scientific evidence,
> at least reported to date, but again time will
> tell. Much worse disasters have occurred but this
> one is much more visible, political and will
> remain controversial as to the disposition of the
> dangerous cargo cars.I will now no longer respond
> to any of this East Palestine HYPE.
> Gonut

Yes, time will tell. There will be more monitoring of this occurrence than any before, so sweeping it under the rug will be difficult. I hope that I am wrong, but I think that we will find Dioxin contamination over thousands of square miles. Dioxin is very toxic and very persistent. The health effects will be around for a long time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/23 20:29 by ts1457.

Thermal detectors are less effective
to indicate at-risk rolling element bearings.

That’s why ‘hot box’ detectors were found to be ineffective in catching failing rolling element bearings —-
early enough to prevent hot axles and axle burn-offs.

It was found that rollers that are at the end of their service life emit
distinct ( failure predicting)
ultra-high audio frequencies
emitted whiie spinning.

That’s why today’s detectors are using sonic sensing technology at
their axle-sensing locations. They’re
no longer using temperatures as a source of detecting bearings that
are at imminent risk of failure.

Typical spacing is every 10 miles,
but that was chosen to mathematically capture the greatest
number of probable at-risk bearings.
But that leaves a percentage of failures that occur at shorter distances.

By the time they are overheating,
the burn-off axle is imminent.
It’s too late to be of preventative use, compared to continuous ultra-sound reporting.

On board ultrasound reporting and transmitting will come about, fairly soon.. Just wait & see the multiple solutions that come to be developed….

Ultrasonic recording does not need
to be affixed to the bearing, as seen by current line-side audio pick-up
equipment. That makes installation of on-board sensing relatively straight-forward, less expensive, and quicker at detecting at-risk bearings.

The predictable ‘life’ of the rolling element bearings can be shortened
from the statistical norms of failure
probabilities. Certain high-impact,
extreme overloading events can occur at individual bearings…
so, you’re gonna have a small number of at-risk bearings that are going to fail very quickly after the excessive abuse related event..

W.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/23 05:33 by wcamp1472.

md Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yeah false positives get troublesome,

You mean like every time the air brakes are used?

WHATTT?

How are air brake applications a factor related to roller bearings?

Loaded car weights and axle rotative
speeds far exceed the forces of braking, when it comes to
bearings under distress.

W.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/23 07:14 by wcamp1472.

PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any one with a new car have air pressures sensors
> within their tires.  The spin of the wheels
> generates a little electricity that transmit a
> message to the car sensor and then the dash
> board.

Lol....yeah, and I'm THANKFUL only one of my vehicles are equipped with them?!?! Sensors FAIL...

>
> Many readers might have a woodstove on which they
> have purchased and used a Gala heat driven fan.
> The base of this fan which sits on the hot stove
> also contains a dual metal which when hot creates
> a electric current that run a fan to blows the hot
> air into the room sideways. 
>
> A unit with that dual metal can make electricity
> to power a small radio that would make a distress
> message: only car initial and number, when a car
> bearing get very hot.  The 8 units of thermal
> sensors would be attached to the top of every
> bearing of every car and be thermal activated only
> when very hot.  That radio message can be relayed
> by transmitters for greater range as needed. 
>                          
>                          
>                          
>                        
>  Rather than the thermal hot box detectors being
> spaced miles apart, they should be built into or
> on every roller bearing for instant detection of
> the decaying bearing.  From the hundreds of
> social media messaging here, I am really shocked
> that no one has called for the roller bearing to
> have a sensor on the bearing to radio its own
> status of operating condition. Let see if there is
> more intelligence here on TO so we can move ahead
> than there are naysayer.    
>
> This sensor might even be as small as a computer
> chip or pack gum and as cheap.   
>  

How is this going to be accomplished on EVERY rail car?

Who is paying for it?

Who is maintaining them?

Are they going to be WEATHER PROOF?

You do understand that rail cars get the crap beat out of them during their lifespan??!!

One more thing....there is ENOUGH "technology" on trains NOW. Contrary to popular belief, there is NOTHING that's foolproof except NOT shipping these chemicals by rail. I'm STILL waiting on an answer of HOW people want them shipped (that is "safer")??!!??!!

End of rant.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/23 06:33 by ns1000.

"The spin of the wheels generates a little electricity that transmit a message to the car sensor and then the dash board."

What is your source of that: 'the spin of the wheels...' comment?

I've never heard of that explanation.
I doubt that's the way they work.

​W.

 

TS 1457  What level of concentration of Dioxin are you talking about?  You are posting like it is salt in the salt shaker and will kill you.  Be specific of parts per billion and besides lingering and does not break down, what deadly injury does it cause?  There is dioxin in your frying pan and we still use it. Well I don't like to hear about the calf that died just after birth but that is for an investigation.  Such births happen like that fairly often. Too much salt will kill you early.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gonut1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well,
> > ts1457,
> > I personally don't think so. But time will
> tell.
> > Nothing much permanent environmentally happened
> in
> > East Palestine according to scientific
> evidence,
> > at least reported to date, but again time will
> > tell. Much worse disasters have occurred but
> this
> > one is much more visible, political and will
> > remain controversial as to the disposition of
> the
> > dangerous cargo cars.I will now no longer
> respond
> > to any of this East Palestine HYPE.
> > Gonut
>
> Yes, time will tell. There will be more monitoring
> of this occurrence than any before, so sweeping it
> under the rug will be difficult. I hope that I am
> wrong, but I think that we will find Dioxin
> contamination over thousands of square miles.
> Dioxin is very toxic and very persistent. The
> health effects will be around for a long time.