Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX on the ground in KY.

CSX derailed in Glendale, KY. Several autoracks on their side.

Rumored to be caused due to a truck stuck on a crossing.

howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CSX derailed in Glendale, KY. Several autoracks
> on their side.
>
> Rumored to be caused due to a truck stuck on a
> crossing,
and I guarantee you that the news media will again make it sound as if it is the trains' fault, which is something that always happens.  Sad, but for the most part, the news media as a whole are clueless about railroads.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

My local TV station out of Ohio. Was making a big deal out of two BNSF derailments. One in Arizona and the other in Washington.

Posted from iPhone

It looks to me like the train was able to stop short of the crossing, but derailed(?)

https://www.wdrb.com/news/train-derails-in-glendale-kentucky-after-semi-got-stuck-on-railroad-tracks/article_54211a14-c435-11ed-90f4-27c2aa9aaddf.html

Wow, I am wondering if that autorack is resting against that house.

Victor Baird

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, I am wondering if that autorack is resting
> against that house.
>
> Victor Baird

It looks like it moved the entire building.

."....was able to stop short of the crossing, but derailed(?)...

That's the problem with so-called "emergency application" of train air brakes..
Just 'cause you "go for the Big Hole",  the whole thing doesn't stop at once.
TOO MUCH MASS + SPEED = MOMENTUM

Yes, you can get the front of the train to stop...but there's too much .
moving mass that is still rolling along coming into what's wrecked ...
it takes TIME to stop a train.. And it takes DISTANCE to stop a train. 

When the cars at the front of the train STOP! ( standing, or on their sides), the rest of the train is still coming!!

You can break traffic laws, and get away with it,  but you can't break the Laws of Physics...
Speed-squared + Weight = stopping distance 

Auto carriers are also comparatively light, compared to cars carrying 75-100 
tons of a cargo, each,

Light cars at the front of a train, ....they ain't gonna' much help!
Even in 'Emergency'!

 W. 

(Inexperienced truck drivers don't recognize a "high-centered" road hazards, 
  until too late!  And it's NOT on their 'GPS' displays---- low bridges are, though!)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/23 03:56 by wcamp1472.

Plus autoracks have an awful amount of slack in them.

Sam

 

Is the media referring to "hazardous autoracks" yet?

I'm watching the local news (WHAS-TV in Louisville) and they had a decent report on the derailment.  Not much speculation, just the picture of the trailer truck stuck on the tracks and the train stopped 200 to 300 feet before hitting it.  No comments on hazmat, just that the train had all of the crossings blocked in the town and that school buses were running quite late getting kids home from school.

John

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ."....was able to stop short of the crossing, but
> derailed(?)...
>
> That's the problem with so-called "emergency
> application" of train air brakes..
> Just 'cause you "go for the Big Hole",  the whole
> thing doesn't stop at once.
> TOO MUCH MASS + SPEED = MOMENTUM
>
> Yes, you can get the front of the train to
> stop...but there's too much .
> moving mass that is still rolling along coming
> into what's wrecked ...
> it takes TIME to stop a train.. And it takes
> DISTANCE to stop a train. 
>
> When the cars at the front of the train STOP! (
> standing, or on their sides), the rest of the
> train is still coming!!
>
> You can break traffic laws, and get away with it,
>  but you can't break the Laws of Physics...
> Speed-squared + Weight = stopping distance 
>
> Auto carriers are also comparatively light,
> compared to cars carrying 75-100 
> tons of a cargo, each,
>
> Light cars at the front of a train, ....they
> ain't gonna' much help!
> Even in 'Emergency'!
>
>  W. 
>
> (Inexperienced truck drivers don't recognize a
> "high-centered" road hazards, 
>   until too late!  And it's NOT on their 'GPS'
> displays---- low bridges are, though!)

I understand the point you are making, but I don't think it totally holds up. A train of that length should not experience "stopping in front first" IMO. This is straight tangent track, and there was no DPU on the hind end to blame this on.

I tend to think that the design of the auto racks is the weak link here. They are so long that the drawbars have to have a wide swing to be able to navigate curves. I could envision a scenario where the drawbars became "kinked" in one direction or another, thus forcing one or more cars off the rails. The rest just followed.

Trains go into emergeny all the time without piling things up like this.

restricted_speed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wcamp1472 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ."....was able to stop short of the crossing,
> but
> > derailed(?)...
> >
> > That's the problem with so-called "emergency
> > application" of train air brakes..
> > Just 'cause you "go for the Big Hole",  the
> whole
> > thing doesn't stop at once.
> > TOO MUCH MASS + SPEED = MOMENTUM
> >
> > Yes, you can get the front of the train to
> > stop...but there's too much .
> > moving mass that is still rolling along coming
> > into what's wrecked ...
> > it takes TIME to stop a train.. And it takes
> > DISTANCE to stop a train. 
> >
> > When the cars at the front of the train STOP! (
> > standing, or on their sides), the rest of the
> > train is still coming!!
> >
> > You can break traffic laws, and get away with
> it,
> >  but you can't break the Laws of Physics...
> > Speed-squared + Weight = stopping distance 
> >
> > Auto carriers are also comparatively light,
> > compared to cars carrying 75-100 
> > tons of a cargo, each,
> >
> > Light cars at the front of a train, ....they
> > ain't gonna' much help!
> > Even in 'Emergency'!
> >
> >  W. 
> >
> > (Inexperienced truck drivers don't recognize a
> > "high-centered" road hazards, 
> >   until too late!  And it's NOT on their
> 'GPS'
> > displays---- low bridges are, though!)
>
> I understand the point you are making, but I don't
> think it totally holds up. A train of that length
> should not experience "stopping in front first"
> IMO. This is straight tangent track, and there was
> no DPU on the hind end to blame this on.
>
> I tend to think that the design of the auto racks
> is the weak link here. They are so long that the
> drawbars have to have a wide swing to be able to
> navigate curves. I could envision a scenario where
> the drawbars became "kinked" in one direction or
> another, thus forcing one or more cars off the
> rails. The rest just followed.
>
> Trains go into emergeny all the time without
> piling things up like this.

It's still all a matter of the train trying to bunch up when the head end squatted down and the rear had no where to go. The problem with all these two mile long trains is that even with DP it just takes too long for a brake application of any kind to propagate make the rear check up. I always feel that no matter how well my train is slowing...it is slowing with the braking effect of the head end because the rear won't even APPLY until after I am nearly stopped. It's only because I can plan my stops that I can get stopped....emergency braking? Who knows? It may stop in one piece or it may not.

engineerinvirginia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> restricted_speed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > wcamp1472 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ."....was able to stop short of the
> crossing,
> > but
> > > derailed(?)...
> > >
> > > That's the problem with so-called "emergency
> > > application" of train air brakes..
> > > Just 'cause you "go for the Big Hole",  the
> > whole
> > > thing doesn't stop at once.
> > > TOO MUCH MASS + SPEED = MOMENTUM
> > >
> > > Yes, you can get the front of the train to
> > > stop...but there's too much .
> > > moving mass that is still rolling along
> coming
> > > into what's wrecked ...
> > > it takes TIME to stop a train.. And it takes
> > > DISTANCE to stop a train. 
> > >
> > > When the cars at the front of the train STOP!
> (
> > > standing, or on their sides), the rest of the
> > > train is still coming!!
> > >
> > > You can break traffic laws, and get away with
> > it,
> > >  but you can't break the Laws of Physics...
> > > Speed-squared + Weight = stopping distance 
> > >
> > > Auto carriers are also comparatively light,
> > > compared to cars carrying 75-100 
> > > tons of a cargo, each,
> > >
> > > Light cars at the front of a train, ....they
> > > ain't gonna' much help!
> > > Even in 'Emergency'!
> > >
> > >  W. 
> > >
> > > (Inexperienced truck drivers don't recognize
> a
> > > "high-centered" road hazards, 
> > >   until too late!  And it's NOT on their
> > 'GPS'
> > > displays---- low bridges are, though!)
> >
> > I understand the point you are making, but I
> don't
> > think it totally holds up. A train of that
> length
> > should not experience "stopping in front first"
> > IMO. This is straight tangent track, and there
> was
> > no DPU on the hind end to blame this on.
> >
> > I tend to think that the design of the auto
> racks
> > is the weak link here. They are so long that
> the
> > drawbars have to have a wide swing to be able
> to
> > navigate curves. I could envision a scenario
> where
> > the drawbars became "kinked" in one direction
> or
> > another, thus forcing one or more cars off the
> > rails. The rest just followed.
> >
> > Trains go into emergeny all the time without
> > piling things up like this.
>
> It's still all a matter of the train trying to
> bunch up when the head end squatted down and the
> rear had no where to go. The problem with all
> these two mile long trains is that even with DP it
> just takes too long for a brake application of any
> kind to propagate make the rear check up. I always
> feel that no matter how well my train is
> slowing...it is slowing with the braking effect of
> the head end because the rear won't even APPLY
> until after I am nearly stopped. It's only because
> I can plan my stops that I can get
> stopped....emergency braking? Who knows? It may
> stop in one piece or it may not.

I agree with you that the cars bunched up. But I'm also willing to bet that any other type of cars would not jump the rails like that. I think auto racks in particular are problematic.

Also, AFAIK this was no "2 mile long train". But I have yet to see any reporting of how long it was.

 

would electronic braking / all brakes engage simultaneously have made a difference in this situation?

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> would electronic braking / all brakes engage
> simultaneously have made a difference in this
> situation?

Yup.

Probably.
Amazing the amount of damage one stuck truck can cause.
Go

Still at work is 'propagation-time'... the time it takes for the rear end
to begin to apply it's brakes..

Each car "relays" to the following car(s) a BP reduction.
Propogation rate does not vary by severity of the reduction,
or the urgency of the engineer..
So, yes, the rear end is the "last to know"... by several minutes!

Reality Law: Heavier cars take longer to stop.
 If they're on the back of the train ---- you don't have to be Newton
to figure out what's gonna' happen..  His 3 Laws apply, all the time.

I have found that if you make a full-service application( 20-lb, or so),
use a LONG pause, then DUMP it ---- you'll have better luck in NOT scattering
cars off the rails.

 Also, the locomotives are heavy, so if they're getting stopped first --
- that doesn't help...Modifying & controlling loco-braking is crucial.

All of that ( spilt-application) becomes irrelevant, depending on higher track speed.
.. and  the available distance to get stopped before the obstruction, in my experience. 

A simple Rule..... Really long trains take a MUCH longer distance to stop...

Propagation time is the cause.  
Wall St money managers know nothing of the physics of railroading.....
and are poor at making those decisions, when applied to real-world environments.
"DO IT BECAUSE I SAY SO!"
( Oh, yeah, That works!)

​W.

Wes, I know that you were involved with steam, but were you ever an active railroad engineer in regular service?

Victor Baird

restricted_speed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > would electronic braking / all brakes engage
> > simultaneously have made a difference in this
> > situation?
>
> Yup.

Having worked with eletronic braking... NOPE.

The building looks like it was moved, but was already sitting at a strange angle. You can see that on google maps.