Eastern Railroad Discussion > How do no-signal main lines work nowadays?

Dunno what's the busiest no-signal line now --
maybe the "Meridian Speedway" east from
Shreveport to Vicksburg and Meridian?

If trains have to meet in sidings with
hand-throw switches, somebody is
driving around closing switches behind
them? If so, how much territory is one
guy supposed to cover? Does he work
regular shifts, or does the RR just call
him out when they expect to need him?
He does hours of waiting around?
In his car?

Or do all the sidings have spring switches?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/24 10:09 by timz.

The first train to arrive, if holding the main, may open the switch for the train they are meeting, at which time, they can cruise right into the siding. When in the clear, the crew on the main closes back up. I wlll refrain from how all this is reported but the dispatcher knows how this is done and may instruct you to do it. The crew in the siding after their meet has departed now has to leave the siding, they get their warrant and they may get permission to leave their switch as last lined. And so that is it, it stays reversed...but the dispatcher knows it's reversed, so when another train gets a warrant in that location it will not let him go past that switch....and he will have instructions "expect to find switch at east end of podunk reversed", if they are not instructed to "leave the main at last named point" they have to line the switch back normal in order to get a track warrant beyond that switch...and they of course notify the dispatcher when they have normalled it up. If you enter a siding and have to line your switch out AND line it back...well...you stay back while the train pulls out, and if it can't back up to get you, then you walk to the head end. Some things haven't changed.

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dunno what's the busiest no-signal line now --
> maybe the "Meridian Speedway" east from
> Shreveport to Vicksburg and Meridian?
>
> If trains have to meet in sidings with
> hand-throw switches, somebody is
> driving around closing switches behind
> them? If so, how much territory is one
> guy supposed to cover? Does he work
> regular shifts, or does the RR just call
> him out when they expect to need him?
> He does hours of waiting around?
> In his car?
>
> Or do all the sidings have spring switches?

The "Meridian Speedway" is CTC with signals from end to end. It only has a maximum of 10 trains daily so it doesn't qualify for a non-signalled, busy line.

VR Out

Posted from Android

Per my most recent (2020) KCS ETT, the Speedway is almost entirely operated under CTC rules.

For the most part, in dark territory, the train crew handles siding switches. In most cases, the train will have to stop to line the switch entering a siding. Sometimes a crew member will have to remain behind to re-line the switch behind the train, which means walking back to the head end. Sometimes the arriving train might stop and close the switch back. Leaving the siding requires opening the switch for the train to depart, then closing it back behind the departing train--again with a crew member walking back to the head end. This can add quite a bit to delay at meets. Alternatives include installing spring switches that self-reline for the main after the train's departure from a siding (still have to line them manually on entry), or installing DTMF controlled switches that the train crew can control remotely. Some RRs are installing CTC islands at sidings on otherwise dark lines. This lets the DS handle the turnouts, reducing meet delay.

An interesting question about the busiest dark mainline today. Both NS and CSX have some secondary mainlines in the SE that are unsignaled, but the daily train count is fairly low (2-8) on each. Examples include Macon-Savannah (NS), Millen-Augusta-Columbia (NS), Spartanburg-Columbia-Charleston (NS), Spartanburg-Greenwood-Augusta (CSX), Laurens-Columbia (CSX), Monroe-Charlotte-Bostic (CSX), and Waycross-Dothan-Montgomery (CSX, Bow Line). It will be interesting to see what happens with the Bow Line, as it figures to be important in the new CSX-CPKC route being set up in the SE.

On the UP these days, the track warrant specifies switch positions that are other than normal.   AFAIK, its no different than signaled TWC territory, other than in dark territory speed is limited to 40 MPH. 


 

isn't dark territory good for 49 mph for freight trains?

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/24 10:58 by goneon66.

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> isn't dark territory was good for 49 mph?
>
> 66

IDK.  I guess it depends on the RR.  

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goneon66 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > isn't dark territory was good for 49 mph?
> >
> > 66
>
> IDK.  I guess it depends on the RR.  

On CSX it's 49....unless otherwise restricted....

engineerinvirginia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pdt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > goneon66 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > isn't dark territory was good for 49 mph?
> > >
> > > 66
> >
> > IDK.  I guess it depends on the RR.  
>
> On CSX it's 49....unless otherwise restricted....

and max 59 for passenger trains in dark territory?

66

49-freight-59-passenger was the traditional
post-1947 rule. Probably still is the rule?

Okay, so the Meridian line doesn't work.
So what is the busiest no-signals line
that has trains both ways? Do any of
them do as I described -- have a guy
driving around cleaning up after trains?

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 49-freight-59-passenger was the traditional
> post-1947 rule. Probably still is the rule?
>
> Okay, so the Meridian line doesn't work.
> So what is the busiest no-signals line
> that has trains both ways? Do any of
> them do as I described -- have a guy
> driving around cleaning up after trains?

It might be or once was the Piedmont subdivision, now operated by Buckingham Branch....which used to see up to 20 trains a day going west....now with PSR they are 3 to 5 200 to 240 car trains! There may these days be a busier dark line but I dunno which. 

Do modern track warrants allow trains to meet each other? Like could a train get a warrant "A to C, meet train X at B" and doesn't need to request a separate warrant once train X is in the siding? Or are all warrants separate?

I used to hear that Conrail's Scottslawn Secondary (ex-NYC from Ridgeway to Columbus, Ohio) was near the top when it came to a busy, unsignaled line.  The Conrail breakup and subsequent changes in traffic patterns over the past quarter century have changed that.  

I also understand that the NS, former Southern, line to Charleston, South Carolina, not only was unsignaled, but had very few places for opposing trains to pass.  The railroads got around that problem that fleeting everything.  (Although wasn't Graniteville located on that line?)
 

MattW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do modern track warrants allow trains to meet each
> other? Like could a train get a warrant "A to C,
> meet train X at B" and doesn't need to request a
> separate warrant once train X is in the siding? Or
> are all warrants separate?

I've been retired over five years, but I doubt the following has changed much.

They'll get separate warrants to proceed from the meeting point "after the arrival of" the train they are meeting. Unless the opposing train clears their warrant. Then a clean warrant will be issued.

Additionally, their warrants to get to the meeting point will specify either "clear" or "hold" the main track where the meet is to occur....the "last named point".

Track warrants don't allow for opposing trains to have running authority with meets thrown in like train orders did. 

RetiredHogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MattW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Do modern track warrants allow trains to meet
> each
> > other? Like could a train get a warrant "A to
> C,
> > meet train X at B" and doesn't need to request
> a
> > separate warrant once train X is in the siding?
> Or
> > are all warrants separate?
>
> I've been retired over five years, but I doubt the
> following has changed much.
>
> They'll get separate warrants to proceed from the
> meeting point "after the arrival of" the train
> they are meeting. Unless the opposing train clears
> their warrant. Then a clean warrant will be
> issued.
>
> Additionally, their warrants to get to the meeting
> point will specify either "clear" or "hold" the
> main track where the meet is to occur....the "last
> named point".
>
> Track warrants don't allow for opposing trains to
> have running authority with meets thrown in like
> train orders did. 

"After arrival" orders were quashed 30 years ago on CSX....a crew went into a siding with orders to await arrival of Engine XXX west, then depart east. They fell asleep and were awakened by a passing train...they missed the engine number and just assumed it was XXX.....it was not....it was the one ahead of it. They proceeded out to the main and within three miles had a headon collsion with XXX...

engineerinvirginia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RetiredHogger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > MattW Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Do modern track warrants allow trains to meet
> > each
> > > other? Like could a train get a warrant "A to
> > C,
> > > meet train X at B" and doesn't need to
> request
> > a
> > > separate warrant once train X is in the
> siding?
> > Or
> > > are all warrants separate?
> >
> > I've been retired over five years, but I doubt
> the
> > following has changed much.
> >
> > They'll get separate warrants to proceed from
> the
> > meeting point "after the arrival of" the train
> > they are meeting. Unless the opposing train
> clears
> > their warrant. Then a clean warrant will be
> > issued.
> >
> > Additionally, their warrants to get to the
> meeting
> > point will specify either "clear" or "hold" the
> > main track where the meet is to occur....the
> "last
> > named point".
> >
> > Track warrants don't allow for opposing trains
> to
> > have running authority with meets thrown in
> like
> > train orders did. 
>
> "After arrival" orders were quashed 30 years ago
> on CSX....a crew went into a siding with orders to
> await arrival of Engine XXX west, then depart
> east. They fell asleep and were awakened by a
> passing train...they missed the engine number and
> just assumed it was XXX.....it was not....it was
> the one ahead of it. They proceeded out to the
> main and within three miles had a headon collsion
> with XXX...

UP had similar problems and results in years past. Now UP, and I would think all GCOR users, require that train ID must be confirmed verbally. It can be done directly with the train(s) being met or waited for, or through the dispatcher.

It's no longer sufficient when waiting for UP 1234 West to arrive to just see UP 1234 West arrive. It must be confirmed verbally.

And don't forget to look for the EOT/rear DPU when it goes by.

Posted from Android

Ns no longer issues meet orders after the 208 - G23 collision in Ga years back. 

doc1057 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An interesting question about the busiest dark
> mainline today. Both NS and CSX have some
> secondary mainlines in the SE that are unsignaled,
> but the daily train count is fairly low (2-8) on
> each. Examples include Macon-Savannah (NS),
> Millen-Augusta-Columbia (NS),
> Spartanburg-Columbia-Charleston (NS),
> Spartanburg-Greenwood-Augusta (CSX),
> Laurens-Columbia (CSX), Monroe-Charlotte-Bostic
> (CSX), and Waycross-Dothan-Montgomery (CSX, Bow
> Line). It will be interesting to see what happens
> with the Bow Line, as it figures to be important
> in the new CSX-CPKC route being set up in the SE.

Good post, good info.
I sit here & think what a shame it is these struggeling railroads haven't made enough money off these lines over the last 150 YEARS to install signals /CTC. 
*Now I do think some portion of NS in SC is dark territory with PTC,
.....but really, this day & age, any of these RRs can afford to have signals or PTC on busy single track lines & they should.
Safety First? Everything starts with safety... ...right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/24 19:52 by nsrlink.

After an ice storm killed the telegraph-wire controlled signals in the 90's, the NS track from Muncie to Lafayette has been dark territory, and the portion from Muncie to some junction I forget the name of a little bit west of there had a bit of traffic for a while, but I don't know if it still does.