Eastern Railroad Discussion > B&O styled signals on the EL

I was looking through some old pictures and I noticed at Sterling and again at West Salem, OH that there are some ground signal mast on the EL that the top head was the usual EL signal, but the the one right below it was a round B&O styled one. What was the reason for this? Siding signal maybe?
-Happy Fanning!

Don't know, but I recall the Westward distant signal for Burt Interlocking in Galion Oh. was a Vertical Trilight(assuming that's what you mean by a "Standard Erie Signal")in the upper head, while the lower head was a Pennsy PL. Heading west into town, IIRC, the home signals were "Searchlights" on a tall double mast. Past the interlocker was the shared mains with PC(ex-NYC)that was signalled Erie vertical trilights on one track and NYC triangular trilights on the other(and also some of those odd looking NYC "searchlights" at a few locations).

This sounds like one of the former Erie Railroad "take siding" signals; they resembled Pennsy position light signals. When I worked on the D&H's Binghamton-Sayre, Pa., turn in 1970, there was such a signal near the EL-LV interchange at Owego, New York; we had trackage rights over the E-L Binghamton to Owego, and from there over the LV's "SC" (Southern Central) branch to get our train to Sayre.

The signal showed a diagonal light pattern when the dispatcher wanted a train to take the siding; this was in non-CTC, double track territory.

I thought in addition to taking the siding they meant that the train had to call the dispatcher via line side phone?

There was a similar signal in Saddle Brook, NJ on the Erie. I will look through some references.

Thank You aehouse, I always figured it to be some sort of diverging indication. I do not remember a siding being part of the configuration there, but it could have(or may have been at one time). It was Double Track and no CTC, but I'm also sure that Burt controlled the east end(and whatever if any plant there was out there). It seems to me that the "Take Siding" indicator had opaque white lenses on the lights, not the clear or amber lens. At the interlocking the double track of the Erie and PC mains formed a double track junction that headed west on a shared double track arrangement(each road owned and maintained one track). Where the tracks crossed there was a double slip x-over arrangement, which I always thought was rather unusual, at least outside the throat tracks of a passenger station. The single track Columbus-Burt Line(PC, exNYC) also crossed the Erie and connected to the Indy Line to Cleveland. The exNYC trackage remains, the Erie is, of course, just weeds.

Very interesting!

Do you think you'd be willing to make copies of those pictures? I've always been interested in signal operations, especially those that aren't there anymore.

I would appreciate seeing these, I can't find too many shots of signals in Sterling, Creston, Burbank, West Salem, Rittman, Wadsworth, etc.

Email me if you'd like, Ster2Block@yahoo.com

Thanks!
Tony :)

Sterling, Ohio Railfans
"The Loop"

The official name of these signals were "Telephone Train Order" signals. Essentially they were mounted on the mast of block signals in advance of siding/crossover locations. They were mounted underneath the signal head of the block signal. The normal block signal head (top) was tied to the track circuit to determine train speed based on block occupancy ahead, while the lower TTO signal on the same mast was totally dispatcher-controlled. TTO signal operation, and the meaning behind the various aspects, are outlined as follows.


From the Erie railroad Rules of the Operating Dept. Effective Nov 30 1952:


Rule 296: Horizontal White Display on the telephone train order signal:

Stop on main track and report for instructions. See Rule 509-D


Rule 297: 45-degree Inclined Display:

Take Siding and when clear of main track report for instructions. Passenger trains will report before taking siding. See Rule 509-D


Rule 298: Vertical White Display:

When the train order signal displayed vertical lights, the signal was regarded as an indicator to proceed regardless of superior trains approaching from behind.


Rule 509-D:

Telephone train order signals, Rules 296, 297 and 298, are located at points designated in the timetable. These rules are amplified as follows:


(1) Rule 296. It is Forbidden to use a crossover at any point where a telephone train order signal is located without permission.

(2) Rule 297. Passenger trains will report before pulling in siding. When siding cannot be used or there is no siding, making it necessary to back train over to opposite track, signal may be passed without first bringing the train to a stop and may proceed at restricted speed until the rear end of train clears the crossover. After permission has been received from train dispatcher or operator, train may back over, protecting movement as prescribed by rule 99.

(3) Rule 298. Proceed in accordance with signal indication regardless of following superior trains-except as provided for in Rule 509-B-until otherwise ordered. It is forbidden to accept the Proceed indication if there is any known cause that will prevent making usual running time. When a train accepts the Proceed indication and for any cause is unable to make usual running time, train must be protected as prescribed by rule 99.



The Erie/DL&W/EL system was priamrily a double track, current-of-traffic ABS operation. There were a few stretches of single track CTC in Indiana and Pennsylvania, but for the most part, trains ran on timetable and train order authority. The railroad did have various sidings in double track territory, either eastward, westward, and (in some cases like in the Canisteo Valley in New York) center sidings, which were used primarily as overtake sidings. Most of these sidings had tower-controlled entrances (either Armstrong rods, or electric), and spring switch exits. Very low-tech it was.

These sidings were used to clear up slower trains when faster trains moving in the same direction were approaching from behind. There was no elaborate approach signal circuitry, so when it became necessary to inform a train via signal indication that they were heading into the hole, they illuminated the Telephone Train Order signal based on what actions the dispatcher wanted the train to follow.

The references to a train using the signal as an indication to back through a crossover is interesting. In EL's double-track territory, the railroad featured crossovers at various intervals. For safety reasons, crossovers which were oriented as facing point crossovers for trains running right-handed in ABS territory only exsited at dispatcher or tower controlled locations, or were otherwise electrically locked by the dispatcher or nearby tower. Other manual crossovers (non-electrically locked) existed in more remote locations, used most often by local freights to access customer sidings, and these were ALWAYS oriented as trailing-point crossovers. This minimized the potential for accidents in the form of high-speed diversions of trains ran the normal current of traffic direction. If a local switch crew forgot to normalize a manual crossover after using it to deliver to a customer, most often the worst scenario that would result when a train stumbled upon it would just be damage caused by the train 'springing through' a non-spring switch. Such results were alot less catastrophic than head-first diversion through the crossover at speed, which is what would happen had the crossover been a facing point design. These telephone train order signals were used to inform crews when they had to switch mains via backup moves in remote, non-dispatcher-controlled locations due to derailments, trackwork, or other operational problems as well.

In the semaphore era, the TTO signals were semaphore designs. TTO semaphore signals usually featured 2 semaphore blades on the mast. The top semaphore blade was the ABS block signal (indicating track occupancy) and the semaphore blade itself, as usual, featured a pointed tip, while the lower TTO semaphore blade was smaller, and equipped with a flat-tip blade, like at interlockings. Back in that era, semaphores with pointed tips on the blades were used as intermediate block signals (could be passed after a stop-and-proceed), while semaphores at interlockings were equipped with a flat top end denoting them as "absolutes" and could not be passed without permission. As semaphores underwent replacement due to age, the block signals were changed to a variety of types (searchlight, vertical tri-light, round tri-light (type G), etc), while the TTO signal head was a PRR-style position light head.

In reality, the whole system was more of a "poor man's CTC". Even so, trains moved at higher average speeds back then, when compared to the multi-million-dollar CTC installations we have today. Unlike today, when CTC systems crap out after the passage of simple thunderstorms, there is something to be said about the lack of technology and simplicty of systems back then and the higher average train speeds they supported.

Thank You Kevin D. for a very good, and Rules based explanation. I assume that these were placed at the Block in Advance of the Siding or X-over to be used? At a location like Burt, that would give the DS the ability to signal a train to crossover and run A.C.T., while picking up the Orders to make this move, on the fly, at the Tower. I never saw this signal east of Burt in use, not surprising considering the very few times I was out at that end of the plant, but with the fair amount of traffic that went through there even in the mid-70's, I suspect it served it's purpose quite nicely.