Eastern Railroad Discussion > VRS :a railroad or just wild men?

On the side of some locomotives owned by the Vermont Rail System, there is
a quote: “Serving Vermont’s industry with pride.”
Strike up the band, and let the public relations medley of tunes play on. It is rumors and not pride that suggest other than what is depicted in this quote. I’m listing some of these rumors, as they do seem plausible.

· In 2003, the Vermont Rail System was granted a lease by the State of Vermont on the newly acquired White River Jct. to Newport line including an annual subsidy in the vicinity of $438,000.00. Today, over the 100 or so miles of track, questions remain as to how much traffic is actually being moved and whether this is real traffic, or just empty boxcars moving to and fro. And is this really a good investment for the taxpayers?

· In the fall of 2003, the Vermont Rail System operated an excursion train,
“The Dartmouth” for the Mass. Bay Railroad enthusiasts. This train derailed north of White River Jct., incidentally very close to the Connecticut River. Imagine a loaded passenger car rolling down the railroad embankment into the cold fall river currents. Before running this train, was the track even inspected? When was the last time a full-length passenger train was even operated over this route? And at the very least, have the passengers received a full refund for their ticket purchases or just a promise of another train? Remember: compound interest creates wealth.

· Apparently, the Concord & Claremont railroad caused a small derailment
on the south end of the wye at White River Jct. The VRS was called in to fix it and is rumored to have charged the Concord & Claremont roughly 2 ½ times the reasonable costs with associated with fixing a derailment of this type. Now show me the money!

· Apparently, a salesman for the Vermont Rail System has been talking up
VRS serving the re-opened paper mill at Gilman, VT and routing the traffic south to WRJ. There can be absolutely no truth to this rumor, the State of NH has purchased the line from Whitefield, N.H. to Gilman including rights to serve this the paper mill, and their is no guarantee of the mill either opening or even using rail service.

· Apparently, a salesman for the Vermont Rail System has been talking up
The potential of the restored “Flying Yankee” train as an excursion from White River Jct. Just imagine this historic train after a multi-million dollar restoration, derailing. Imagine what VRS officials might say to an incident like this? Spin and three syllable words running concurrently.

· Apparently, VRS has replaced the wye at Wells River, Vermont which was
removed as a part of a bridge replacement effort. Based on the above rumors, did the taxpayers pay a reasonable cost(s) for this project?


Aside from rumors and public relations statements, toledopatch has taken some recent photographs of VRS trains. I’m sure they will come out very good. Perhaps they can even be used for a glossy brochure to be passed out by VRS as a measure of goodwill and perhaps even generate some traffic, because if there is any truth at all to any of these rumors this is a company better described as a group of wild men rather than a railroad.

Just the fact that they have been in business over 30 years, have survived and revived a rail line that went bankrupt, developed a intermodal service, and have gone from success to success speaks more for the Vermont Railway System than the baseless and weak crap that you just wrote.

MH

AmericanLines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just the fact that they have been in business over
> 30 years, have survived and revived a rail line
> that went bankrupt, developed a intermodal
> service, and have gone from success to success
> speaks more for the Vermont Railway System than
> the baseless and weak crap that you just wrote.
>
> MH

If you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with bulls+?*.

why are you stooping to repeat rumors? Are there no facts to post? Or is it that the facts don't substantiate your agenda?

Quite a bit of response is needed here...

"....questions remain as to how much traffic is actually being moved and whether this is real traffic, or just empty boxcars moving to and fro."

No, actually we just LOVE burning fuel and hualing empty cars around for nothing. Give me a break, what do we look like, GUILFORD???

"In the fall of 2003, the Vermont Rail System operated an excursion train...
...was the track even inspected?"

Of course it was... This was factually reported to the press and passed on to the public. The deferred maintenance of the previous tenants of the line indeed has taken a toll on it.

"When was the last time a full-length passenger train was even operated over this route?"

Define "Full length." I don't see what that has to do with any part of the incident. However, if you MUST know, a private charter had been over the route just a couple weeks before.

"And at the very least, have the passengers received a full refund for their ticket purchases...."

The finacial arrangements between VRS and the Mass Bay Railroad Enthusiasts is none of your business. Mass Bay rented the train from VRS at a set rate. YOU can do the same! (shameless passenger department plug!). Of course... If you had BOUGHT a ticket, you would know if they did receive a refund. I find it hard to imagine that out of 270 people on the train, you don't know any of them to ask.

"Apparently, the Concord & Claremont railroad caused a small derailment
on the south end of the wye at White River Jct. The VRS was called in to fix it and is rumored to have charged the Concord & Claremont roughly 2½ times the reasonable costs with associated with fixing a derailment of this type. Now show me the money!"

Firstly, CCRR did not CAUSE the derailment. Nobody would do that intentionally. However, it is customary that a carrier pay their fair share of the wear and tear of a rail line they operate over. This includes the fact that CCRR moves large amounts of tonnage in the form of cement and salt over the wye at White River. Conversely, VRS and GRS usually only use the wye to turn locomotives. 2½ times the cost? By what standard have you arrived at this? Perhaps it would have been true if we were to hire some illegal aliens to do the work. However, the costs are actual and derived at by using industry standard pricing for all the labor and equipment. Railroading is NOT cheap!

"Apparently, a salesman for the Vermont Rail System has been talking up
VRS serving the re-opened paper mill at Gilman, VT and routing the traffic south to WRJ. There can be absolutely no truth to this rumor, the State of NH has purchased the line from Whitefield, N.H. to Gilman including rights to serve this the paper mill, and their is no guarantee of the mill either opening or even using rail service."

Is it re-opened or not? In the first sentence you say it is and in the last , it isn't. In either case, the mill is in VT and NH bought the track in NH only as far as I know. Aslo, our sales department doesn't deal in "rumors". Negotiations between customers and the railroad is privileged information and is not shared with the general public. Therefore, you don't know ANYTHING about the situation and neither do I for that matter.

"Apparently, a salesman for the Vermont Rail System has been talking up
The potential of the restored "Flying Yankee" train as an excursion from White River Jct. Just imagine this historic train after a multi-million dollar restoration, derailing. Imagine what VRS officials might say to an incident like this? Spin and three syllable words running concurrently."

Aside from the fact that there hs been NO promotion of the Flying Yank-me running on VRS, I see little basis for any of your comments. One derailment of a passenger train in 40 years doesn't exactly qualify for your own "spin doctor" treatment. I won't even begin to comment on the Yankee project itself! Now THERE's a case for a boondogled project if ever there was one.... (I could write a book on it!).

"Apparently, VRS has replaced the wye at Wells River, Vermont which was
removed as a part of a bridge replacement effort. Based on the above rumors, did the taxpayers pay a reasonable cost(s) for this project?"

Ask the NH Highway Department.... THEY paid for it! The cost of the track removal and replacement was simply part of the contractor's obligations to the project. Nothing more, nothing less. In case some of you never heard it, the fact that the contractor used the railroad bridge instead of erecting a totally separate temporary highway span saved bucket loads of money and time toward completion of the repairs to the regular highway span.

"....because if there is any truth at all to any of these rumors this is a company better described as a group of wild men rather than a railroad."

Well, I don't see any truth to the rumors so I guess that rules out the "wild men" title.

Your response reads more like spoon fed propaganda than fact RFandPfan.

“No actually, we just LOVE burning fuel and hauling empty cars around for nothing. Give me a break, what do we look like Guilford.?”

$438,000.00 of taxpayer’s money is the argument, RfandPFan. Please feel
free to share your knowledge and acumen. 100 or so miles of track and where exactly are these rail customers and industry you “serve with pride.” If you must
know, other than a state grant improving the west end of the freight main, Guilford Rail System does not and has not accepted taxpayer’s money. Now when your done singing the company song and eating marshmallow fluff at taxpayer expense, answer this question: How long do you think the WRJ to Newport line would operate if the $438,000.00 subsidy were to suddenly evaporate. See what I mean about the spoon fed propaganda your paycheck is likely dependant on it.

“Of course it was…this was factually reported to the press and passed on to the public. The deferred maintenance of the previous tenants of the line indeed has taken a toll on it.” Stunning contradiction in terms, bordering on unbelievable. How can you talk about deferred maintenance on a line which had been completely abandoned since at least 1995; and to make matters worse, if the line is in such poor shape why is VRS running passenger excursions on it! (emphasis added). And factual reporting to the newspapers, wow, this is getting really deep.

Thanks for the diatribe about management and negotiation, if anything; you do a great job as standard-bearer of the company line. In terms of refunds, this would have been the right thing to do in light of what happened. To my knowledge this did not happen. Remember what I said, compound interest creates wealth.

VRS overcharged for the repairs to the wye, period.

The paper mill at Gilman, VT has not re-opened despite substantial local interest and investors from Utah. The state of NH has indeed purchased the line that directly serves the mill in Vermont. This is outlined in the STB Twin State railroad filing and related motions. If the VRS sales department doesn’t deal in rumors and irresponsible public statements, just what do they deal in? Please do not hide behind the company negotiation theme, as this is tantamount to simply passing the buck. Note: In the trainorders archives, under Twin State Update I posted a current photo of the Gilman mill and related discussion.

Alas! One item we agree on. The debacle known as the Flying Yankee. Please write your book about this subject matter, perhaps include a section on the various tax breaks that have been given as a result of this donation. Nothing ever is as it seems.

I don't know ExceptedTrak nor RF&P fan, nor do I pretend to be an expert on the VRS, but the garbage as posted below is just that, garbage. Aside from the subsidy and derailment lines, nearly everything began with "imagine", "apparently", "rumored".

ExceptedTrak, your whole post was nothing but baseless accusations. You suggest that VRS should show the money, how about you showing the FACTS!

Regards,
Burlington John




ExceptedTRAK Wrote: (with lots of snips in there)
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is rumors and not pride that suggest other than what is depicted in this quote. I’m listing some of these rumors, as they do seem plausible.
>
> Imagine rolling down the railroad embankment into the cold fall river currents.
> Before running this train, was the track even inspected?

> Apparently,
> is rumored

> Apparently,
> Apparently,
> Just imagine
> Imagine

> Apparently,
> Based on the above rumors,

> Aside from rumors and public relations statements,
> because if there is any truth at all to any of these rumors

burlingtonjohn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know ExceptedTrak nor RF&P fan, nor do
> I pretend to be an expert on the VRS, but the
> garbage as posted below is just that, garbage.
> Aside from the subsidy and derailment lines,
> nearly everything began with "imagine",
> "apparently", "rumored".
>
> ExceptedTrak, your whole post was nothing but
> baseless accusations. You suggest that VRS should
> show the money, how about you showing the FACTS!
>
> Regards,
> Burlington John

Burlington John you forgot to mention the line that
begins with Strike up the band and let the public relations
medley of tunes play on. Guess in your book, its okay to rake
the taxpayers money, operate with a questionable safety record
and not respond to verifiable issues within the railroad industry.
I'd encourage you to re-read my posts and consider the FACTS within,
combined with the assetions I make, some of which are in fact rumors.
Even if some of this garbage (your term) is partly true, it presents
a company that is better described as wild men rather than a railroad.

>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is rumors and not pride that suggest other
> than what is depicted in this quote. I’m listing
> some of these rumors, as they do seem plausible.
> >
> > Imagine rolling down the railroad embankment
> into the cold fall river currents.
> > Before running this train, was the track even
> inspected?
>
> > Apparently,
> > is rumored
>
>
> > Apparently,
> > Apparently,
> > Just imagine
> > Imagine
>
> > Apparently,
> > Based on the above rumors,
>
> > Aside from rumors and public relations
> statements,
> > because if there is any truth at all to any
> of these rumors

Ohhhh, okay, attack the questioner. Aside from your strike up the band line, the derailment and subsidy mention, nothing you have listed has any grain of truth listed to it.

So the question remains. What are your FACTS?

Regards,
Burlington John

burlingtonjohn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ohhhh, okay, attack the questioner. Aside from
> your strike up the band line, the derailment and
> subsidy mention, nothing you have listed has any
> grain of truth listed to it.
>
> So the question remains. What are your FACTS?
>
> Regards,
> Burlington John
>
Are you insane? Nothing listed has any grain of truth?

Tell me Burlington John, what is the truth? Where is the $438,000.00.

Damn right I'll attack the questioner, part of an organization of wild men.

ExceptedTRAK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your response reads more like spoon fed propaganda
> than fact RFandPfan.

Over 20 years of "spoon fed" PRIDE is what you see. Other than that you have no knowledge of what it is like to walk in our shoes.

> $438,000.00 of taxpayer’s money is the argument,
> RfandPFan. Please feel
> free to share your knowledge and acumen. 100 or so
> miles of track and where exactly are these rail
> customers and industry you “serve with pride.”

Do you actually think that customers are going to just pop out of nowhere? One has to earn their trust by providing not good, but GREAT service. VRS is bending over backward to provide such service and trying to remove the bitter taste left by those before us. I'd like to see you do better. Wasting taxpayer dollars? What makes VRS' situation any less deserving than any other form of State aid?

> How long do you think the WRJ to Newport
> line would operate if the $438,000.00 subsidy were
> to suddenly evaporate.

Likely it would continue to operate but it would be a severe struggle. No one is going to argue that point. So, what's your point? I've heard this diatribe before from a resident of Newbury we all know as "Goober".

> “Of course it was…this was factually reported to
> the press and passed on to the public. The
> deferred maintenance of the previous tenants of
> the line indeed has taken a toll on it.” Stunning
> contradiction in terms, bordering on unbelievable.

What do you find hard to understand? I was there and saw EVERYTHING that went on. The most accurate newspaper report made was that of the Rutland Herald. Aside from making one small mistake on arrival and departure times, it was right on the money.

> How can you talk about deferred maintenance on a
> line which had been completely abandoned since at
> least 1995; and to make matters worse, if the line
> is in such poor shape why is VRS running passenger
> excursions on it! (emphasis added). And factual
> reporting to the newspapers, wow, this is getting
> really deep.

Yes, it DID take its toll on it. VRS has done a tremendous amount of work but time manpower and funding delays slow things down. As for running an excursion, the track was in no worse condition than any other tourist line. In fact, for the most part it is better. It was ONE spot that was well hidden by hollow ties that looked great on the outside. Freight trains run Monday through Friday with alot more tonnage than an easy riding passenger train. It was just the toss of the dice that it was the excursion train.

> In terms of
> refunds, this would have been the right thing to
> do in light of what happened. To my knowledge this
> did not happen. Remember what I said, compound
> interest creates wealth.

So why aren't you charging the Mass Bay RRE with anything? THEY are responsible to those who purchased tickets. THEY rented the train at a flat rate. VRS was not reaping a profit for the day. I'm sure it cost plenty to provide for all the emergency transportation. It was a bad day and YOU have NO right to comment negatively about it. The situation was handled in an orderly, swift, professional manner. It's more than I can say for the poor folks who had to wait for hours after Steamtown derailed their train under amazingly similar circumstances. As they say... "S**t happens."

> VRS overcharged for the repairs to the wye,
> period.

I wish you could say HOW...... You have no numbers to back up that statement. Do you know the current full AAR and contract discounted labor rates? Do you know the hourly costs for each piece of equipment sent to the scene? The insurance costs? The loss of equipment from breakage during the rerailing process? Bottom line is that you have a large chip on your shoulder about VRS and have no meaningful way of releasing that anger other than spouting of unsubstanciated diatribes.

> If the VRS sales
> department doesn’t deal in rumors and
> irresponsible public statements, just what do they
> deal in?

Again, I have to ask... Just what is your deep seated hate of VRS based on? The folks at VRS are trying to do the best job possible with the hands they are dealt. Growth does not come easy in the railroad world and you are bound to rub some folks the wrong way. One fact is true, though.... VRS bends over backward to serve its customers but occasionally unfortunate situations dictate that our service might stub its toe. I don't believe there is any other railroad in the northeast that can hold a candle to what is done there.

> Alas! One item we agree on. The debacle known as
> the Flying Yankee. Please write your book about
> this subject matter, perhaps include a section on
> the various tax breaks that have been given as a
> result of this donation. Nothing ever is as it
> seems.

Yes, indeed the FY project is a debacle. The entire project started as a noble effort but has long since been lost to those at the top of the FY comittee who have absolutely NO common sense about railroading. If someone wants to satrt a new thread on the subject, I know someone who can say alot about it.

The truth isn't in anything you have written when you preface everything with "apparently, rumors, rumored", etc.

The only organization of wild men that I can even be remotely connected with is the Cajon Pass Railfan, Historical and BS Society and various overseas escapades while in the US Navy. I could start talking about the Tasmanian Devil in Hobart, but she is another thread.

Again, list proof, facts, sources, etc, if you have them. I doubt you can.

Regards,
Burlington John




ExceptedTRAK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> burlingtonjohn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ohhhh, okay, attack the questioner. Aside
> from
> > your strike up the band line, the derailment
> and
> > subsidy mention, nothing you have listed has
> any
> > grain of truth listed to it.
> >
> > So the question remains. What are your
> FACTS?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Burlington John
> >
> Are you insane? Nothing listed has any grain of
> truth?
>
> Tell me Burlington John, what is the truth?
> Where is the $438,000.00.
>
> Damn right I'll attack the questioner, part of
> an organization of wild men.
>
>

I had generally planned to stay out of this debate, because I could see where it was going.

As far as I can tell from this distance, the "$438,000" figure represents Vermont's investment in preserving the WRJ/Newport rail corridor. I don't think the identity of the operator is particularly relevant toward the pursuit of preserving the corridor, unless an accusation is being made that the state is being overbilled by VRS for work it is doing with those funds. If that's the case, I suggest such a concern be referred to the state Attorney General so an audit can be performed.

But I gotta say, this sounds like more of ExceptedTRAK's sour grapes over Guilford not having gotten the state franchise to operate this line -- a line that once belonged to Guilford, of course, but which Guilford saw fit to let rot to the point that taxpayer funding is its only salvation. Is it worth saving now? The state of Vermont clearly thinks so. I'm not in a position to question that wisdom.

Maybe that fruitcake Howard Dean got the 438000.00 for his campaign.
Larry

Dean's not so much a fruitcake....
He's part railfan!

If you really want better funding for railroads in the US, you would do well to vote for him. Frankly, I have enough of politicians who do NOTHING for railroads.

There is no way on God's sacred green earth I'm voting for that quack. I ain't voting for ANY of the announced candidates for prez. They all suck. The're all either nuts (Dean, Sharpton), incompetent (Bush), wishy washy (Clark, Gephardt, Kerry). I despise Democrats and Republicans alike. These two parties have had the USA on a downward escalator since the 1960's. Either I'm voting for a true independent, or the libertarian or no one (like last time).I'll take my integrity over some fly by night mediocre (at best)candidate. If it means staying home in November - so be it. Incidentally I have a degree in political science so I have a good understanding of how politicians lie and manipulate for their own selfish gain. All that "I'm for the little people" is enough BS to fertilize the planet Jupiter.Even if Dean wins the nomination he is as good as toast. No state in the south will support him.
Larry

Larry576 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no way on God's sacred green earth I'm
> voting for that quack. I ain't voting for ANY of
> the announced candidates for prez. They all suck.
> The're all either nuts (Dean, Sharpton),
> incompetent (Bush), wishy washy (Clark, Gephardt,
> Kerry). I despise Democrats and Republicans alike.
> These two parties have had the USA on a downward
> escalator since the 1960's. Either I'm voting for
> a true independent, or the libertarian or no one
> (like last time).I'll take my integrity over some
> fly by night mediocre (at best)candidate. If it
> means staying home in November - so be it.
> Incidentally I have a degree in political science
> so I have a good understanding of how politicians
> lie and manipulate for their own selfish gain. All
> that "I'm for the little people" is enough BS to
> fertilize the planet Jupiter.Even if Dean wins the
> nomination he is as good as toast. No state in the
> south will support him.
> Larry
The republicans are the party of the rich, the democrats want to give it all away!

It's a shame to read all this negative discussion on the Vermont Rail System.

40 years ago - January 6, 1964 - I was working in Freight Traffic Dept across The Lake - when the VTR had it's humble beginnings with a leased Middletown & New Jersey 44 tonner (VTR #1). We got the news of it, and little did we know then that a sleeping giant was awakening.

So, it's 40 years ago this month the VRS was born; can anyone deny it's anything but a success story with brilliant management?

I'm a retired traffic professional, and have followed this line for all of its 40 years.

Just to show that VRS is indeed putting the customers first, both today and tomorrow extra trains will be run to move time sensitive traffic. Today is on the Pompy (see... Tax dollars DO work) and tomorrow will be on the green Mountain.

This is in contrast to GRS who, as soon as something unusual occurs, cancels their trains on the Conn River....

Nuff said...

ExemptedTrack shouldn't be so sore about VRS. If I didn't know any better, I would think he was a GRS employee who lost his job in the north country.

From everything I've seen and read, VRS is a well run and efficient road that gives great service, like my hometown FEC. I wonder if they will get more GP60's??