Model Railroading > Athearn Blue Box motor upgrade questions

Yes I did the search. Nip that in the bud.

Most were dated and all lacking in a complete swap. Learned a few things.
Now, I have just invested in a NCE DCC setup as well so some of these will be upgraded maybe to sound. SD9 for sure.
All are the wide body grey flywheels. Pins on the frame to the shell Most won't need lighting except forward.
I'm going to upgrade motors account of noted current draws.
Now the questions
1: Genesis motor the best now? That kit screw into the old frame? This will isolate it? As far as mounting it that is. Does it come with older driveshaft style?
2: Just tape under the motor after bending/removed tangs? Solve any future shorts.
3: drive shaft mods needed?
4: I don't know wheelsize info. Most all mine are six axles. What NWSL wheels suggested and do they come with gear or without?
5:shell on/off ease. Wire length? How to mount decoder? Saw one taped on top of motor and taped to roof of shell.
Lots of reference to double sided tape. This the spot to use it? Speaking of tape one shot showed it down the sides of the motor. That go all the way around it for insulating ?
6: soldering work better with a pencil point iron or my interchangeable head type with trigger work ok? Trying to get a idea about the "careful" remarks. Some just attach at the tower, others cut it off and go low. To what advantage going low?
7: saw reference to connector to unplug headlights when removing shell. No pic to see.

8:what about a newer blue box motor? Four prongs to attach shell in frame type? That where the driveshaft compatible issues start? Maybe used may be cheaper with some spare parts?
:9 Older posts suggest Kato(not available any more?) A-line, Proto power. I never had a problem with any of my Athearn motors so any real reason to go this way?
10: voltage, I don't understand what's involved with lights and resisters. Little breakdown needed.
11: will I be able to run them D.C. again?
12: tricky one, I have a two motor DD35. One decoder do it?? Plus all the other questions it brings up:)
13: pin count. 8,9,21. What does that mean. More accessories it will run?
Let's review, I need a complete list-idea of what is needed. I haven't done much in the hobby but buy new and test it and shelf it in 20 years. Refresh me:)
fbe and funnelfan had a lot of info in bits that I have put in this list to get my shit straight. Part numbers are helpful. Thank you in advance for those.
Hopefully this will help others as well to have all the info in one place.
Comments and advice welcome as long as you define your comment. "I use this decoder " isn't enough. Why do you use it? That helps more.
As for YouTube, I need to read about it to get my mind straight then watch more. Getting the lingo right helps in understanding the video.
You can call me dumb stupid ignorant and such but don't call me late for dinner:)



Printed material suggestions?
Thanks all in advance. Maybe more questions as well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/17 13:53 by SD45X.

Let's get started, it looks like this is going to end up being a multi part thread.

1 Genesis motors (ATH G63842) are Athearn's best but there is nothing wrong with the blue box current motors. Some of the replacements can be purchased with an attached circuit board making the motor DCC ready. The Genesis motor has 4 pins which go through the frame holes then uses screws up from the bottom to lock it in. If there are contact pins on the motor, bend them out of the way then tape the frame. Try Kaptan tape from TCS.

3 Drive shaft mods. There is the old Athearn shafts you are used to but they can be noisy. The new shafts are dogbone shafts which are quieter. A-Line makes a conversion with end sockets for the motor shaft and gear tower. These have an assortment inside diameters to match the shaft diameters you might deal with.

4 Wheel diameters are 40" diameter. The new Athearn wheel sets are not sintered like the old ones and are readily available

5 Decoder mounting. Motor mounting was most common but if you are working with a lot of SP lighting packages then mounting on the top inside of the shell means the wire runs are shorter and won't be shifting around when the shell is removed. The roof mounting means you will only have 4 wires from the frame to the decoder, red, black, orange and grey. A 4 wire connector is more useable than a 9 pin.

6 No trigger equipped soldering tools. Get a nice soldering pencil 40 watt or less. There are some nice units with an adjustable base which are not expensive. Weller WLC100 is a great starter for DCC work.

7. Lighting connections are a challenge and spendy. I just solder the wires to the decoders then unsolder them when needed.

9. Kato motors or equivalent are still around but may take some searching. Motor shaft diameters may vary between brands so you may need some shaft tubes to adapt the diameters or the A-Line drive shaft upgrade kits.

10. Light voltage. Many decoders put out track voltage light out puts which need 12 volt bulbs. There are 1.5v bulbs which will need resistors or a decoder with 1.5 v output. Soundtraxx decoders for Genesis fit that requirement. Leds are 3 volt and will need resistors or a decoder for Atlas units.

11. DCC units can run on DC though all the lighting circuits mean the unit will not start until there is 7-9 volts on the rail. Most of the straight DC units will be half speed by then. There is a CV setting in the decoder which allows the unit to recognize DC or ignore it. There are some control advantages to have DCC units ignore DC. Everyone starts with the idea they can merge DCC operations into DC operations. The harsh reality is it quickly becomes one or the other. You already own the NCE system, you are committed. Start with a bit of a test track on a small yard or industrial area. Isolate that from tge rest of the layout.. Make that all DCC and learn to program and operate your units there. After you have 6-10 locos up and running and are comfortable disconnect the DC from the main layout and convert it to full DCC. Learn about wiring reverse loops, you will need that.

12 Two motor units use one decoder with the motors in parallel. You will want one of the newer decoders with a 2 amp rating instead of a 1 amp rating.

13. These are decoder connections. 8 pin is the NMRA standard and has limited lighting capabilities. Some locomotive mother boards which are DCC ready have this connection. 9 pin connections allow for 2 more lighting options and some mother boards have a connection for 9 pin. Why two more light functions? The 8 pin connection only has 7 wires. The 21 pin connectors are becoming a new standard. Choose what you need for the job at hand. I am using Digitrax, NCE and ESU for non sound decoders in the 9 pin form or PNP light board replacement format. TCS decoders are well rated. For sound it is Tsunami or ESU Lok Sound, again TCS is recommended by others. I have a recent Atlas S2 switch engine which came with a 21 pin interface on the light board so I installed a 21 pin Tsunami 2 decoder with a cell phone speaker to try those 2 new products. The decoder fits on the bottom of the mother board above the truck tower making this a very compact install in a locomotive without much head room. Some of the US 21 PIN decoders only have 9 out of the 21 pins connected. That will probably give you enough lighting outputs to do a full SP light package on one end of an SD9.

Some of this is not going to make much sense until you actually start installing a decoder or two. After 2-3 it gets easier.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/17 22:42 by fbe.

Are we talking the classic Athearn wide-body SD9?

++ I should have explained the obvious first, there is a way to isolate a motor, wire up a DCC board and insulate it (wide shrink wrap or black tape), then glue it to the roof of the shell. Pretty sure it's been covered on the larger web and can be found using Google. It's not very clean but is also used on older brass.

There's a few challenges in conversions with no obvious drop-in fix. One being the trucks provide a single tab for power with the frame being used for the other polarity. Technically this is doable but can cause two frames to have different polarities (like being back-to-back) and causing a pretty heavy short circuit, with a non-insulated coupler path or through some other innocuous path while switching or going around a curve.

The newer Athearn DCC-ready series have trucks with two isolated pick-ups on the trucks with no connection to the frame. But they are not direct replacements and would take some work to fit onto the older frames, but Athearn doesn't make that sideframe/truck. That may be something to look into but I haven't. The older frames use a simple kingpin idea but the surrounding metal also keeps the truck in place.

The current go-to SP SD9 is the Walthers offering, which sold out pretty fast on the West coast. All the modern options are available at the modern retail price. The Athearn SD9's are classics but if you have a bunch they are best used with DC. I'm sure somebody has converted their prized weathered wide-body SD9's to DCC and it would be interesting to hear the story.

I have a few wide-bodies but have a stash of P2k's to replace them. The current Walthers SD9 traces it's detailed shell to the P2K runs.

Interesting topic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/17 12:18 by TCnR.

Re frames shorting against each other, if you mount Kadee couplers in their boxes, they are insulated and it's not an issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/17 19:50 by pmack.

There's a few more details to the story.

Athearn doesn't make a two polarity DCC-ready truck for the SD9, so that can't be done, but it explains the obvious differences. Sure wish Athearn would offer the SD9 but that's a different topic entirely.

The fix for the poor running P2K SD9 was to replace the powered frame with an Atlas SD35/SD24 frame, they have similar truck sideframes and fuel tank. Perhaps there's a viable way to do that with the wide-body SD9, not sure about that because of the differences in how the shells are made and attached. This may be the best way to go, maybe somebody has tried it with the wide-body shell.

It becomes a choice of spending money or saving shells or doing a lot of conversions, which could be said that's what the hobby is all about.

Agree that the hot frame is something that can be worked with. That's also how older brass (and older Athearn before DCC-ready) is updated with DCC circuits, with the caveat of isolating the motor to allow reversing the motor polarity/direction. There's a letting-the-smoke-out factor in there that should be recognized though.

+ I'll add the hot frame idea to the top of the first thread, not really the best way to go but if somebody adds in all the decoder numbers and motor p/n's it works.

++ I converted a bunch of similar BB SD45's a long time ago, back in the RPP era. I used Mashima motors which were popular at the time, used an automotive RTV to hold the motor to the frame and line up with the drive train, drilled and tapped a 2-56 hole to connect to the frame. Nice motor and the wiring made them pretty solid runners, but there was no way getting around the slop in the u-joints and the trucks.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/17 16:12 by TCnR.

Egads, there's a million conversion examples on Youtube, very messy:

How to hardwire a DCC decoder into a BB kit SW1500 Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUEIoMLhMwg

OK, so call me crazy, which most will agree i am. I have some super detailed , custom painted Athearn blue box engines going back to the late "70s. I "de-motored" a few of them, run behind new DCC units, as dummies.They get to ride the high iron, and no wiring grief. Your thoughts?

There is no need to gut out a working unit just to consist it on a DCC layout. Converting a blue box athearn to DCC takes a couple of hours once you have some experience. You need a 9 pin decoder with a long 9 wire harness which comes as a part of many Digitrax and NCE decoders. I can't call you crazy for skipping a DCC conversion but don't be afraid of it either.

The best out there now seems to be

Scotch 3M Outdoor Mounting Tape

You find this in hardware stores like Ace and the box stores. It comes in a roll, you can't miss it since the separator between the adhesive is red. This is far easier to work with than any caulking adhesive for attaching motors to frames.

We're all waiting for a parts list so we can compare the parts needed vs a new model.

btw didn't have double back tape back in the BB days that was worth using. Of course the motors didn't have much torque either.

Hello ??

Athearn sintered bronze wheels (the same material that they used to make their flywheels, by the way) were 42".  That was actually an EMD option.  If you end up with different size wheels from one engine to another, some speed matching will take care of that.

If the Athearn trucks have plastic truck side frames, try these http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=Wheel+Axle+sd&Status=In+Stock

If they are metal, then you will need NWSL outside bearing wheel sets.  They do not include the axle gear.  You get that from either inside the truck you are working on, or Athearn sells it as a separate piece.

If the NWSL wheel is factory pre weathered, don't buy it.  

Larry

Re power parts.

https://ppw-aline.com/pages/re-powering-parts

Larry