Model Railroading > Brass Steam Locomotive

Hello everyone!

This is my first time posting here so please bear with me.

I've been thinking of buying a brass locomotive and so I've been searching the web for new and used imported brass locos. Since I don't own any, I have questions about the pros and cons of buying brass. My questions will obviously seem basic and naive but some locos are rather expensive as everyone knows. So here goes.

Is it a good or bad idea to buy an unpainted loco and try painting it myself?

I've noticed that many imported brass use open-frame motors. I don't know if these are good or bad motors and if bad, should they be replaced with new can motors?

Some reviews of brass locos state that the engine is noisy or runs poorly. Are these something to stay away from?

Some locos are equipped with operating lights. Is it a difficult task to add?

How about a sound decoder?

If something is not right or goes wrong with the loco, are they difficult or expensive to fix?

I know and understand that what I'm asking is rather difficult to answer but perhaps the basic question is: are brass locomotives a good purchase or should I stay away?

Thanks,

George Corral
La Grange, KY

Brass locomotives are a whole new facet of the hobby. There are some quality brands like PFM, NWSL, OMI, Precision Scale and a few others. There are others who's reputation and quality are not so high.

Engines with open frame motors are probably more than 20 years old but can still be good runners. Medium size models from this vintage sell at swap meets for $300 or less.

If you are not a pretty good mechanic then installing DCC sound, lighting or paint is something which is going to require quite a bit of assistance.

So I would recommend you find a prototype railroad you like the pick up a quality brand 2-8-0, 4-6-0 or 4-6-2 and give it a try. Something with a can motor will be easier to upgrade to sound but also more expensive.

Good luck.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 17:17 by fbe.

As a long time collector of later model (Overland and Oriental) diesel brass models, my first question is "...Why are you doing this...? Do you intend to run them, work on them, collect them or just appreciate them? In my case I don't run them except to test them, and my focus is to work on them, (restoration, paint, electrical) all of which can be fairly easily self-taught. The electrical is pretty much cause and effect...don't be afraid of it. To me, this is relaxation and therapy. I appreciate them as art forms, close depictions of the prototype, and also the interesting idea that brass is essentially immortal. If you don't drop it, handle it excessively, or abuse it, it will long outlive you after all the plastic stuff has depolymerized. Educate yourself at the various brass sellers (Brasstrains.com is one of the better ones with large stock, pictures and descriptions). I have had excellent luck on EBay, but get educated first on what's a realistic price and what you want out of it....run it, fix it, display it.
It is one rare part of this hobby that you can work on this stuff, enjoy it, appreciate it and then if you'd rather have a collectors car you can still sell it for close to what you paid....but careful here in overpaying. And yes, it takes a lot of brass pieces to buy a functioning classic car!

Auburnrail



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 17:53 by Auburnrail.

Here is my 2 cents based on my limited experience:

As far as steam locomotives, OMI's that were made in Korea right after much of the work moved from Japan (early 1980s?)are not so good. It was a learning curve. PFMs are good.

If you want to paint a brass loco, you might be able to remove the boiler (often attached the cab) from the frame and mechanism with just a few screws so you can bake at 175 degrees in the oven after painting. If the pilot is soldered to the frame that should be painted too. I wouldn't risk putting the mechanism in the oven too if there are plastic parts in the drive (nor the motor). Therefore, if you have to remove the drivers and rods and reassemble them, you'll need a quartering jig. Also, there might be plastic to insulate the drivers and the tender axles. Come to think of it, the frame is going to have to be painted too, because it shows below the boiler and behind the wheels.

Some brass steam locos were painted with a clear coat at the factory and it's a good idea to let things soak in a solvent to remove it and clean things really good before painting. Scalecoat paint for metal is a good paint to use on brass and it dries semi-gloss for decaling.

If you're lucky, your tender top will be screwed to the frame and you can install your decoder and speaker(s) in there after you remove the frame screws.

As far as removing and adding brass parts, that can be problematic as without an resistance soldering outfit, you may remove parts you don't want to by getting the heat in the wrong places. Heavier parts may require a small torch otherwise.

Frisco modeler, Don, who posts here often scratch-builds and kit-bashes brass locos, so he will provide some wisdom. Steam locomotives were mostly custom by railroad, so brass locos before the advent of the high-tech, plastic, hybrid steam locos were the only way to go for your particular railroad if it wasn't the PRR, Santa Fe or NYC. And even then, brass could get you almost everything in between.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention. For DCC the motor should be insulated from the frame which is often not the case with brass. If you can pick up an older brass loco for about $300 and paint and rework it to what you want, you can be very proud of a great loco.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 18:39 by wabash2800.

I plan on adding a headlight on my brass loco I'm working on right now. I'm going to install a small, surface mounted LED in the headlight casting with a hole drilled in the back for a pair of wires into the boiler and to the light function. I am also going fabricate a small, found piece of clear plastic for the headlight glass or use a MV lens with a hole tapped in the back.

I learned 30 years ago not to bake paint on drivers and wheels. I painted a SSW 4-8-4 and when I baked the wheels, all the insulated tires fell off the drivers and the insulated wheels fell off. I got it fixed, but learned a valuable lesson there.
If you remove the drivers to paint the engine, you don't have to requarter them. Only time that's necessary is if you remove a driver from the axle to install a gear, of if one has slipped quarter and the mechanism jams up.
Use plenty of common sense and ask a lot of questions. We have all been where you are in the beginning. My boss always marveled at how I did what I do with hands as big as mine. If I can do it, anyone can.

Thanks to both fbe and Auburnrail for the input.

To answer both of you, I own several larger plastic steam locos but I need/want one or two smaller locos either 0-8-0, 2-8-0, or 4-6-2 for my yard or road switcher. I model SP so I really would like an SP C-9 or Pacific. But as you know, these can't be found in plastic not for SP and not prototypical anyway. So, it must be brass then. And yes, I've been looking at Brasstrains and on ebay.

I'm mechanically inclined so I believe I can perform most if not all modifications but I realize it'll require much research. My only concern was purchasing something that would not be a good idea or end up costing much more than the purchase price.

I plan to run any loco I own on my small switching layout. Locos need to work! LOL

Thanks for responding.

George

George Corral
La Grange, KY

Thanks to everyone who's replied.

I understand and appreciate your comments very much. Exactly the kind of information I need and am looking for.

I'm looking forward to my new adventure. Yikes! I'll be around with more specific questions. Stand-by!

George

George Corral
La Grange, KY

Do NOT bake it in an conventional oven You can't trust it to remain at a stable temperature..Too hot, you may quickly have a parts pile. I built my own box using foil covered Insulated foam panels from Home Depot and aluminum HVAC tape. Use a low wattage bulb and use a digital thermometer to keep track of the temperature. Test the box temp FIRST!!! As stated previously 175 degrees is what mine operates at safely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 19:20 by Hoggerdude.

I have baked brass engines in my kitchen oven for over 35 years. But as Don said, do not bake drivers or any wheels for that matter and no plastic brake shoes. And certainly don't bake a motor. Strip everything off the frame including the draw bar and its attachments.

PFM engines made after about 1970 had holes drilled in the tender floors so, they are easy to add a speaker and electronics into them, If you buy an engine with an open fame motor you can get can motors from Northwest Shortline to replace them and provide much better running. Constant light circuits are available in hobby shops. If you go to DCC the electronics allow for lights, all you have to do is drill the headlight to fit the miniature bulbs. There are many dealers that advertise in the back of MR that do DCC installations.

If you want a certain brass engine inquire here on T.O. about their reputation being sure to advise who the importer and manufacturer are. You will get answers. There were many Korean brass manufacturers whose quality was terrible for many years. Some finally got their act together, others did not.

Tom

All these suggestions are if you plan to run your engines on a regular basis. I know this sounds crazy but I got involved in purchasing brass locomotives that were basket cases and experimented on them. You get to know how the different gears work, quartering, detail parts, prototype for a specific road etc...It can be some what expensive but if you buy new brass and run into trouble you'll have to find someone to fix it rather than fixing it yourself. Also with that basket case you can salvage parts off it just like the railroads did.Can motors make a big difference if you plan to run your engines. You can purchase them on ebay at a reasonable prices. When I first converted from open frame motors to can motors, I was surprised how easy it was.

Grommet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks to both fbe and Auburnrail for the input.
>
> To answer both of you, I own several larger
> plastic steam locos but I need/want one or two
> smaller locos either 0-8-0, 2-8-0, or 4-6-2 for my
> yard or road switcher. I model SP so I really
> would like an SP C-9 or Pacific. But as you know,
> these can't be found in plastic not for SP and not
> prototypical anyway. So, it must be brass then.
> And yes, I've been looking at Brasstrains and on
> ebay.
>
> I'm mechanically inclined so I believe I can
> perform most if not all modifications but I
> realize it'll require much research. My only
> concern was purchasing something that would not be
> a good idea or end up costing much more than the
> purchase price.
>
> I plan to run any loco I own on my small switching
> layout. Locos need to work! LOL
>
> Thanks for responding.
>
> George

If you are modelling Southern Pacific I would go for models made by Westside Models or the older Balboa as they made many SP locos. While the Balboa ones did not have as good a detail as Westside they were a very good basis to detail up a good looking model, good runners if the open frame motor is up graded to a can motor from NWSL.

Malcolm
New Zealand.

It would be hard to beat a Max Gray, WSM or Balboa model made in Japan. Great gearboxes and a mechanism sturdy as a tank. Watch ebay.
Tom mentioned "basket cases". I used to buy these before people started thinking they were "rare" and worth a fortune. Hard to find one today that somebody doesn't want a new engine price for. I get a kick out of ebay listings. PFM ATSF 2-8-0 RARE. They only made about 8000 of them.

George:

Hi, as part of your brass loco project I could recommend my video on "How to paint a model steam locomotive" but that would be shameless self-promotion.

Jeff Johnston
www.trainvideosandparts.com

Not being on Jeff's payroll, I can also recommend his videos with no hint of bias. Very well-explained, well-photographed, easy to follow. No exotic materials or solutions, just common sense and experience.

Speaking of baking models, unless you live alone, make sure NO
ONE touches the oven during the process. You've already figured
out the end of this story.

My friend was baking a model. His mother turned up the oven to
425°, and didn't notice the oven was already on nor bother to look
inside. From the next room he noticed a strange smell. It was
already too late.

His customers' OMI diesel was already mostly flat.

Larry

I would think most spouses wouldn't allow you to bake paint in "their" oven. <G>

With all due respect for tomstp, Just because your oven works, your reply doesn't insure the temperature controls on other ovens is correctly calibrated.I've seen the disasters online and first hand.

Larry I had a similiar thing happen. I had one in the oven and my wife not realizing it turned up the oven to preheat it for something she was going to bake. In a little bit I heard "OMG I think I ruined a engine." I quickly pulled the pan out and set it down I noticed a shine to the solder. It was right at the melting point.

Got lucky on that one and that was the only near disaster I had.