Model Railroading > Antiques Roadshow: Pullman Parlor Car "Flying Dutchman"

This segment was aired on PBS' Antiques Roadshow Monday 2/19/18 re: an exquisitely detailed model of an 1885 Pullman Parlor Car company parlor car named "Flying Dutchman". The owner had purchased it at an estate sale for $800 a couple years back and the appraiser said it was conservatively auction-able for $15,000! Neither the owner or the appraiser could identify the origins of this painstakingly detailed (interior as well as exterior - the parlor car seat actually swivel!) model. Anybody have any ideas about where this model came from? Thanks.

http://www.thirteen.org/programs/antiques-roadshow/appraisal-pullman-parlor-car-model-ca-1885-mogjb3/

That looks scratch built.

I saw this show also. My thinking is that this car might bring around $1,000.00, maybe. I don't believe you would even come close to 15K. Just me. Jim

i saw it too , very nice car, but thought in my mind, it might be worth $3000.
Definitely worth what the owner paid for it, $800.

The builder put countless hours into the build, can’t imagine the time spent on it.

HB90MACH Wrote:
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> That looks scratch built.

True but there is discussion in the segment as to why it was built - eg, was it a sales prop used by the Pullman Parlor Company to sell parlor cars to railroads in the late 1800s? Or was it just a model that an individual built in excruciating detail for recreation or some other purpose? And I wonder what gauge, if any, it was built to.

That would go without saying as there never was a kit, feel secure in saying that, of it. Have seen many scratch built cars over the years in larger scales and smaller. Not uncommon.

It looks close to O scale.

Looks like "one scale" 1/32, runs on G Scale track. Value? My Blue Train cars by J&M were 800 pounds each twenty years ago and now are worth $700, so I think this car is worth about $800, unless there is some extra historical value. Plus it is missing some steps and looks like it needs a good shopping. Frank

$800.00 is what the guy paid for the car in the first place. Jim

alamedafrank Wrote:
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> Plus
> it is missing some steps and looks like it needs a
> good shopping. Frank

After a restoration it'd be worth much less.

Emmo213 Wrote:
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> alamedafrank Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Plus
> > it is missing some steps and looks like it needs
> a
> > good shopping. Frank
>
> After a restoration it'd be worth much less.

The general rule for antiques.....never clean them. Dust lightly only. I have seen priceless items that once had a beautiful patina acquired over years, decades, or even centuries, laid waste when a well meaning family member or owner "cleaned" the artifact, or even "upgraded" it. The Pullman parlor car was untouched and retained it's original furnishings and finish.

On the same Antique Roadshow, a woman brought in a bodhisattva (The Buddha) statue that was around 600 years old. It was missing an arm and a hand, but other then that, it had remained untouched for centuries. It's value was astonishing....upwards of $150K. Had the owner, or anyone through the years "cleaned" it, or even replaced the missing parts, it probably would have lost a substantial amount of it's value.



they have damage.

ATSF3751 Wrote:
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> Emmo213 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > alamedafrank Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Plus
> > > it is missing some steps and looks like it
> needs
> > a
> > > good shopping. Frank
> >
> > After a restoration it'd be worth much less.
>
> The general rule for antiques.....never clean
> them. Dust lightly only. I have seen priceless
> items that once had a beautiful patina acquired
> over years, decades, or even centuries, laid waste
> when a well meaning family member or owner
> "cleaned" the artifact, or even "upgraded" it. The
> Pullman parlor car was untouched and retained it's
> original furnishings and finish.
>
> On the same Antique Roadshow, a woman brought in
> a bodhisattva (The Buddha) statue that was around
> 600 years old. It was missing an arm and a hand,
> but other then that, it had remained untouched for
> centuries. It's value was astonishing....upwards
> of $150K. Had the owner, or anyone through the
> years "cleaned" it, or even replaced the missing
> parts, it probably would have lost a substantial
> amount of it's value.
>
>
>
> they have damage.

This is quite different than those you describe as its value would be increased if repaired not decreased and professional cleaning so nothing would be damaged would also add to it. Then one would put it in a glass case to preserve it. The things you describe are entirely different and one could only hope as the fellow who gave the price was just a shot in the dark for some reason.

If indeed the car had some history behind it--built by Pullman, it would add value to it. Otherwise, the 15000 is a pipe dream. But, as someone said: A sucker is born every minute. We don't even know how old the model is but I would said it's at least a 100 years old. Yes, in the thousands but not 15000, in opinion.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/18 17:47 by wabash2800.

Saw the same program and remember one thing, the gentleman who appraised the car is in the business of doing this kind of business and the one thing about this car that makes it extremely difficult is to put prices on items like this is the fact that this car is a one time item with nothing to compare it with so how do you judge a price on something that has never had been looked at before. When showing very close up shots of the car it is evident that time is taking it's toll on the details. These factors have to be considered when evaluating a price. My personal feeling after spending a lifetime evaluating prices on trains is that the price of $18,000 far exceeds the value that I would pay for or even ask for the car. I am quite sure that if you asked another expert you would get the same amount of different prices. It is nice but that is about it!

Jim
Hatboro, PA

Have seen rare things in larger scale, 1 1/2 and 3" scales just as detailed as this that never sold or price was much less than the cost to build one.
Some fellow mentioned cars he used to own that weighed 800lb. What scale were they and any pictures?

BAB Wrote:
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> Have seen rare things in larger scale, 1 1/2 and
> 3" scales just as detailed as this that never sold
> or price was much less than the cost to build one.
>
> Some fellow mentioned cars he used to own that
> weighed 800lb. What scale were they and any
> pictures?

> Looks like "one scale" 1/32, runs on G Scale track. Value? My Blue Train cars by J&M
> were 800 pounds each twenty years ago and now are worth $700, so I think this car
> is worth about $800, unless there is some extra historical value. Plus it is missing
> some steps and looks like it needs a good shopping. Frank

J&M was a British hand builder of historic One Scale (1/32 scale) British and European railway coaches. The brand name has been taken over by another company who is producing the old models - http://www.jandmmodels.com/. When the original poster said the British models were 800 pounds, he was referring to their cost in pounds sterling.

BAB Wrote:
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> ATSF3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Emmo213 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > alamedafrank Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Plus
> > > > it is missing some steps and looks like it
> > needs
> > > a
> > > > good shopping. Frank
> > >
> > > After a restoration it'd be worth much less.
> >
> > The general rule for antiques.....never clean
> > them. Dust lightly only. I have seen priceless
> > items that once had a beautiful patina acquired
> > over years, decades, or even centuries, laid
> waste
> > when a well meaning family member or owner
> > "cleaned" the artifact, or even "upgraded" it.
> The
> > Pullman parlor car was untouched and retained
> it's
> > original furnishings and finish.
> >
> > On the same Antique Roadshow, a woman brought
> in
> > a bodhisattva (The Buddha) statue that was
> around
> > 600 years old. It was missing an arm and a
> hand,
> > but other then that, it had remained untouched
> for
> > centuries. It's value was
> astonishing....upwards
> > of $150K. Had the owner, or anyone through the
> > years "cleaned" it, or even replaced the
> missing
> > parts, it probably would have lost a
> substantial
> > amount of it's value.
> >
> >
> >
> > they have damage.
>
> This is quite different than those you describe
> as its value would be increased if repaired not
> decreased and professional cleaning so nothing
> would be damaged would also add to it. Then one
> would put it in a glass case to preserve it. The
> things you describe are entirely different and one
> could only hope as the fellow who gave the price
> was just a shot in the dark for some reason.


Just repeating what the appraiser said about the piece, the Buddha (Bodhisattva) statue. Perhaps you should contact him. Also have heard repeated times that there are many cases where cleaning....and sometimes repairs.....decrease the value of the piece. Paintings are usually enhanced by cleaning and repairs, while objects as a general rule should not be cleaned, while repairs can be done in some cases. In the specific case of The Buddha, the value of that item would be the same regardless of whether it had the parts missing or not, given it's rarity and provenance as an probable artifact of the Imperial Chinese court. In any event, I stand by my original comments. If you have questions, you may wish to contact a conservator regarding which objects are better served by cleaning and repairs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/18 11:54 by ATSF3751.

Pre war lionel and ives actually go up when you clean then or properly repaint them. As long as you apply the exact original factory enamel color. Have it paint matched at an automotive store. Post war Lionel is a different story paint it at all and it is instantly worthless. Clean them only and the prices goes up. It is odd how different objects at different time frames are effected by cleaning and repair. Never under stood why