Model Railroading > Who Do You Turn To...

Who do you turn to... when Walthers (or any other manufacturer) messes up your dealer's pre-order on their products, and so few were produced they can't correct their mistake?  Or if your dealer receives defective items they can't replace?

That's the question...   

Here's the rest of the story if you are interested (please don't read if you think that the current limited manufacturing and preorder system is actually working well)...

I preordered a pair of each car number of the new Walthers TTX/VTTX 60' container flats...  Waited the months...  Then got the nice advance email from that dealer saying they were on the way...  He listed them...  I bought them...  And then I got that now all too familiar email/call that Walthers messed up his shipment, what he received didn't match what he had ordered (or his invoice he had based his online listings on), and he got shorted on some.  So now he couldn't ship exactly what I preordered and had paid for last week (he could only offer substitutes).  Okay, so where do I look now?  None on fleebay (the few posted - all at more than $5 above that dealers price even before shipping cost - had sold within minutes and before I saw them or knew I would need to get them) and they are all sold out (or not even listed) at every other online store.

Normally I turn to MBK - who unfortunately doesn't take preorders (the reason they are no longer my primary dealer) - as sometimes they get large quantities of what they expect to be popular items (and on the VTTX cars I had been told they would get plenty of them this round, because they sold so fast last time and I, like many, missed the 15 minutes they were all available) and there is usually a slight delay before they list them.  That lag was the case this time too.  In fact I happened to be on the MBK site Thursday when those cars were listed, and then the inventory added (about an hour later) which was a small miracle.  The bad news was they only got 8 of each car (they usually get at least 12 or 24 of most TTX cars).  And before I could even quickly check out with the car numbers the other dealer got shorted on... poof... MBK was sold out of those too (yes, in under 2 minutes after the quantity was added so people could buy).  This is where the story takes both an expected and an unexpected twist.  I called MBK today and found out that yes, they only got 8 each of the 3 car numbers (so what I observed was exactly correct and they couldn't explain why they got so few), and - as I suspected - that one single person had bought all 8 each of two car numbers immediately when listed - wiping out MBK's entire stock of those two cars in less than 2 minutes time.  What was unexpected is that I was able to deduce from comments made in background that they were sold to [name withheld] in [city withheld] who I recognized as the name and location of owner of a competing hobby shop [name withheld] - totally robbing MBK's chance to sell those two items to their regular customers.

So if anybody out there wonders why MBK totally sold out of the Walthers 910-5335 and 910-5336 VTTX cars within 2 minutes... the answer was that the owner of another hobby shop bought them all before any regular MBK customers could.

The shorting of product has gotten that bad, and it doesn't help when Walthers can't ship what dealers preorder and you get individuals like me, and apparently even dealers, having to hunt multiple sources after delivery (for items they actually preordered).

[Update 7/4]  SUMMARY...  Since this thread is now being spoken of today on another forum (one where I occasionally visit to read but no longer post), I can clarify that the cars I am referring to are the 910-5335 and 910-5336 VTTX cars and I have since had discussions with the MBK management staff (on Tuesday 7/2) to confirm what I was told on Saturday - one buyer bought both those items out immediately, quantitiy of 8 each, and yes they now realize that buyer is the owner of a competing store and mailorder outlet.  They could not say why they (MBK) had ordered (or received) so few of what was expected to be a popular car but only that discussions are ongoing about actions that could prevent a future occurance of a popular car being totally bought out by a competitor.   As for the competing dealer who bought all 16 that MBK listed of those two stock numbers (but fortunately for me missed the thrird car number) I can't say whether his intent was speculation, buying more for himself, or if he had been shorted by Walthers too (like the dealer in Illinois who I had placed advance orders with).
 



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/19 10:23 by CSX602.

I too have noticed that Mexican railroad engines and cars in which I am interested tend to disappear all at once from MBK's site, thus I have been ordering them elsewhere.

I have also noticed a few items on the MBK site with the "limit 1 per customer order" perhaps to combat this activity.

I dont have an answer for this except to remind the manufacturers that this hobby generally does not support higher prices for supposedly "collectable" or "rare" items no matter how much they wish it would. Limited production mostly results in angry customers and angry dealers caught in between.

Michael

Michael, I agree with you...  The manufacturers have created an atmosphere that creates more frustration and conflict for buyers and the dealers are getting caught in the middle (which is likely one reason those that can are retiring and closing shops).  It also doesn't lend to any expansion in the consumer base of the hobby.

And just a note on those FerroMex cars... When MBK got the last run of FerroMex 5161s and bulkheads (listed same day) somebody bought every one they had and within a few minutes (something like 54 cars if I recall correctly).  I had placed one of each 5161 and one bulkhead in my cart (along with several other items) and those FerroMex cars sold out before i could complete my checkout.  A call to their customer service that day confirmed that AND the customer service rep I spoke to today even brought up that exact occurrence as an example of the issues he had noticed.   The old sales platform apparently had easier way to limit items per customer, and apparently it is tougher (more time consuming) to do now.  So I've heard the excuse from one customer service rep earlier this year that they don't want to limit sales numbers because they don't want to limit the number of track pieces, parts or wheelsets somebody can get (to which my reply was, okay then don't apply it to those categories).  I discussed that aspect again with the customer service guy today (different guy) and his opinion is that their sales needs should be driving the software, not the software preventing steps that need to be taken.

This doesn't solve the larger issue but in Chicago we are still lucky enough to have multiple hobby shops. For anyone, Lombard Hobbies has a good online store and usually good stock, and I think they posted those cars before MBK had them up. Then, the bizarre option for someone locally is to go to the store without an online presence - Zientek's - where things likely weren't gobbled up like on MBK. Strangely, though he has had issues with Walthers and order minimums to even get shipments, I saw those cars there something like two weeks ago. He still may have some.

By the time word gets back to the inporter the Chinese factory has moved on to 3 more projects and has no interest in straightening out any mess especially if they are not going to be reimbursed for a full run.

So customers pay their money, roll the dice and take your chances. Everything needs to make a split second decision and no one in the supply chain wants to carry any inventory.

If you want cover your bets then buy Walthers' products directly from Walthers. You will pay a higher price perhaps but what price is your disappointment worth? I have to think that Walthers will take care of it own retail customers orders before covering its wholesale customers who buy at at least 40% off. As for bemoaning the sharp practice of a retailer cornering the market on a particular model by buying up another retailer's stock, well what do expect when a POTUS states that it is "smart" if one can avoid paying taxes. It changes the dynamic. It means "working the system" is now acceptable. So if a dealer works the syetem is being "smart" it means it is now socially acceptable--thus it is scoiological issue, not particularly political. 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/19 13:52 by RRBaron.

I ran into this with the Rapido Santa Fe RDC sets. When they were first announced, I duly ordered a set from my dealer. And he in turn ordered a set from Walthers on back order. When he got the announcement they were coming, and told me they would be there on a certain date, I made preparations to hand him the cash for the transaction. At the last moment, he called me, very frustrated, and told me Walthers had decided to send the set to another dealer instead and mine would show up in a couple months. Now I've been lied to before, and I immediately started checking. I called Rapido and indeed, everything that was ordered was produced and shipped. But either Walthers had decided to screw my dealer to take care of another dealer or they had underordered. I do know that mt dealer had ordered the set correctly, because I remember asking him more than once and he brought up the item on his Walthers online orders. My only assumption on the 'show up later' is that Walthers hoped they would have a fer returns they could then resell. Nothing further has ever appeared from Walthers.

To be honest, I place the blame squarely on Walthers. There was a time they were a very reputable supplier, but for the last few years (since the last President took over?) they have become more and more unreliable. My dealer has shifted some of his ordering to other suppliers to protect himself, but there are some items I worry a lot about receiving orders. Realistically what can I do as a customer? I can't order more than I need or order from a second dealer because I would have to stiff a dealer on an order. It's a very sad situation when a once-trusted supplier becomes unreliable.

To add a happy ending to the first story, my call to Rapido did turn up a second solution. Because Rapido owns their own factories, they have them ship all overruns and spares along with the completed orders to their offices. There had indeed been an overrun on the Santa Fe RDC sets and they were glad to sell me a set directly. I figure I paid a little more than I would have to support Jason's RDC, but I did get an item I badly wanted.

Reply to RRBaron...
1) I will not buy directly from Walthers as the last time I did that - probably 15 years ago - they messed up the order (which was for their products), split it, and double charged shipping.  I also had the instance in dealing directly with them on a missing kit part (1990s) where it took them 5 tries to send me the correct part and they still never got it right.   I'd rather give my business to a good hobby dealer, who usually does a great job but in this case was left in a bad situation by Walthers.

2) I wouldn't call it a "sharp" practice by one retailer to try to corner a market by immediately trying to buy out all the stock of a competing store...  I would call it despicable, wretched, reprehensible, slimy, and perhaps even deplorable.   And I'm not saying that was the intent here, because if it were, he forgot to get all of one of the car numbers, thus failed and wasn't that "sharp".

3) There's no need for discussion of politics (including any mention of POTUS which is politically motivated) in this topic, and the only reason I could see for somebody bringing it up is to try to get the topic locked.


 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/19 12:29 by CSX602.

CSX602 Wrote:

> 3) There's no need for discussion of politics in
> this topic, and the only reason I could see for
> somebody bringing it up is to try to get the topic
> locked.

The refusal to consider sociology--(not politics)--as to why things we don't like in our hobby continue to happen is to ignore reality. In my opinion, 15 years to hold a grudge against the major hobby dealer is a bit long, after all the person(s) responsible may have retired or worse. So why cut your options because of someone who may no longer be around? If you just gotta have that special model, order from two dealers and sell the duplicate on the net or at a hobby show (but don't stick the dealer with it.) I've done it and whilst it means I pay more, I do get it and don't belly ache about it. Model railroading is one of the most expensive traditional hobbies, its no longer for the faint of heart and/or purse--if it ever was. It shouldn't be that way but everything is affected by the sociology of economics. The builders of the prototype railroads were largely despicable people. Or to put it in another way..."We have met the enemy and he is us.) ...Pogo     



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/19 13:55 by RRBaron.

Can we assume that this competing retailer bought the cars for MBK's regular price plus shipping? How's he going to turn a profit? Put 'em on eBay after the market dries up?

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can we assume that this competing retailer bought
> the cars for MBK's regular price plus shipping?
> How's he going to turn a profit? Put 'em on eBay
> after the market dries up?

That has become quite common these days.

CPR_4000    Yes, they would have had to pay MBK normal price plus shipping.  I can think of four scenarios.  That dealer is having an issue getting product from Walthers (unlikely), also got shorted by Walthers (possible), is looking to sell at full retail on their web site (which would be well above their usually discounted prices on the other roadnames currently shown in stock on their site), or has future plans for auction/direct sales at retail or higher pricing.

 

RRBaron Wrote:
> The refusal to consider SOCIOLOGY--(not politics)

Bringing up the POTUS is political (not sociology) - whether it is the current one or others (including worse ones/candidates) from the past.

If you want to talk sociology, then speaking of it being okay for somebody to horde items purely for later profiteering (whether it be model railroad products or food) would be at the very least debatable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/19 12:27 by CSX602.

If I had an nickel for every time that Curt wrote a post like this, I would be a millionaire. Do some modeling Curt. Enjoy the hobby. I have 100% of the time been able to get anything I ever needed at a reasonable cost if I wait. No worries. 

Bruce

If I had a nickel for every time Bruce made a personal attack...

To all the others, thanks for your suggestions.  I found the VTTX cars at another online shop.  Just sorry other MBK customers didn't get the chance to get them from MBK... 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/19 12:39 by CSX602.

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can we assume that this competing retailer bought
> the cars for MBK's regular price plus shipping?
> How's he going to turn a profit? Put 'em on eBay
> after the market dries up?

Good question, he might only be serving his loyal customers by providing them items pre-ordered but shorted. The shipping? Either he eats it for good-will or passes it on to the loyal customer who should step-up to pay for it in good faith. Or, I have known of dealers and collectors who buy a duplicate and hold on to it until the demand will bring a much higher price. A perfect case is Walthers' Heavyweight baggage cars. Who can't use another "off-Line" bag car that ran between 1920 and 1971? What were they when new $59.99? You can find most any out of production roadname on the internet if you are willing to pay $129.99-$159.99 for it. I did once and I am happy to have the car on my train. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/19 14:12 by RRBaron.

CSX602 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you want to talk sociology, then speaking of it
> being okay for somebody to horde items purely for
> later profiteering (whether it be model railroad
> products or food) would be at the very least
> debatable.

Sociology is neither right nor wrong, what it means in this case what caused former social barriers to be bridged.

1.  This is a “First World” problem, if I have ever heard one.

2.  Free enterprise.  If you don’t like the service—or lack thereof—that you receive from a business, shop somewhere else!

3.  Wasn’t it much better, when you could walk into your local hobby shop, casually browse the new items, take them out of the box, examine them, test run them, ask the knowledgeable person behind the counter about this and that?  Hit the magazine rack, check out the sale table, ogle the latest brass offerings and squint to try and find a long discontinued treasure sitting on a shelf behind the counter?  Maybe bump into some old MR friends, maybe make some new ones, all in the air conditioned comfort of a place where most every subject discussed was a pleasant, happy one?

4.  Oh, but wait:  you all want deep discounts and free shipping TOO?

5.  I’m so happy to be retired.

Hope you are all well,

Allen Drucker

Streamliner Wrote:
--------------------------------
>
> 4.  Oh, but wait:  you all want deep discounts
> and free shipping TOO?

My wife and I try to get the best deal we can be-it a used car, model trains, groceries, what-ever. I make no apologies for that, nor does my wife. But I don't have unrealistic expectations.

> 5.  I’m so happy to be retired.
>
> Allen Drucker

I don't think I'd be happy running a shop either after all I've seen. Or a restaurant for that matter.

Regarding this topic. I don't fret too much about how/where to buy my "toys". I have a number of vendors who generally get the job done and eBay for OOP items as well.

I'm reminded of a Rolling Stones song lyrics:

"You can't always get what you want - but if try some times, you get what you need."

With a little patience, I've found that to be true in this hobby.

Cheers, Jim

Posted from Android

RRBaron Wrote:
> Or, I have known of dealers and collectors who buy
> a duplicate and hold on to it until the demand
> will bring a much higher price.

I initially thought it was one of those type profiteers, but when I found out was shop owner I thought might have also been shorted...   I expect we'll know in a week or two, if we see available again (at higher price) on their web site (no 60' VTTX listings there now) or a seller from that location doing auction listings with them.

By the way, before this second release of VTTX cars was released, the first run cars were getting $60+ on auctions...   Once you see the cars in person, you'll understand why.   Not many HO cars out there with see-through deck support structure where you can see the wheels and brake rigging through the deck.