Model Railroading > LCC (Layout Command Control) - Have you used it?

I've always admired well done signaling on a layout.  I'm finding out there are several options available.  After viewing this video, I'm seriously considering using LCC for the detection, turnouts, and signaling.

youtube.com/watch?v=Au4lcuyfx4g&t=4717s        (Copy-n-paste that into your browser, since TrainOrders doesn't allow a live link to YouTube.)

If you have experience with LCC, please feel free to post your impressions.
Thank you in advance for sharing!  :-D

I wasn't very familiar with LCC until a few days ago.  I knew it was an NMRA-approved standard (in 2016), but glad to find it is NOT a replacement for DCC.  (I've a significant investment in DCC equipment, so changing it all out is NOT an option!)  It will free-up DCC from having to carry the data for accessories.  If a large DCC layout is having significant delays in locos responding, or the command seems to get "lost", then the 8K baud rate of DCC is being stretched too thin.  LCC to the rescue, with a 125K baud rate.

LCC is based on CANBUS (Control Area Network BUS) that was developed by Bosch for automotive applications, which is a 12v DC environment with lots of noise (spark plugs, alternator, etc).  A perfect match for our layouts, which are also low voltage DC with lots of electrical equipment (motors, relays, power supplies, etc) generating noise that can affect communications on a network bus.  
I assumed by now there would be a bunch of manufacturers offering equipment for this new LCC standard, but it seems like the only real player in the market is RR-CirKits.  (TCS recently offered an LCC-compatible throttle, but offers no signaling or detection equipment.)   

http://www.rr-cirkits.com/description/index.html

The good news is the RR-CirKits equipment is well thought-out and has lots of accessories.  The Tech Support is quite good, since RR-CirKits wants word-of-mouth advertising to be positive.  I LOVE their use of ribbon cable to connect components.  It can REALLY go a long way towards preventing the proverbial rat's nest of wiring.  If the DCC bus wiring looks complicated with just feeder drops and turnout controls from the track, just wait until the Detection and Signalling wiring is added!   :-0

Though I like to support small businesses, it gives me pause when they are the sole source of a product that I will standardize upon for a smooth running layout.  (I was really sweating it out when Micro Engineering was up for sale...)  I suppose it is just an occupational hazard of being a model railroader, but I like to avoid it whenever possible. 

About the only other option for signalling was to set-up an entire network of Arduinos that communicate with each other.  The basic components are "open source" and produced by lots of manufacturers, so not much chance the supply of hardware will evaporate.  However, the price paid is the computer code needs to be written and/or customized for each block (detection, signal aspects, turnout controls, etc).  Even though there is a lot of code already written and available for download, it will need to be modified.  Depending on the in-line documentation, it can be simple, or complicated.  The vast majority of my upper division work for my BS in Computer Science was in C and C++, so I'm not "afraid" of programming.  What I am afraid of is trying to modify and debug code I didn't write.  The trick is to change as few lines of code as possible, AND not create a problem for some other subroutine or process that will show up later.  (Been there.  Done that!)  Though I know I could do it, I would prefer to spend my time pursuing something else than slinging code.  However, if all else fails, I would be willing to do it to have a signaling system.  The hardware would be pretty cheap, but the price paid is in the time to seamlessly integrate them.  I prefer plug-n-play.

Dave



 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/23 17:27 by tmotor.

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You mentioned TCS. I believe their new DCC system supports LCC. At one time I considered signaling to be something I wanted, but then realized that my entire mainline run amounted to a scale mile and a half (almost). After that sunk in, it just wasn't worth the effort anymore.

As far as DCC systems go, if mine failed tomorrow, I'm going the TCS route with a ProtoThrottle or two. 

I attended one of the LCC sessions at the 2019 NMRA convention in Salt Lake and it really piqued my interest. Met Dana Zinmerli and later bought his book “Introduction to Layout Command Control”. Also got a chance to meet Dick Bronson from RR-Cirkits and see his demo LCC setup in action, it was slick. As a programmer, the concept behind LCC makes a ton of sense and I’m surprised there aren’t more vendors adopting it.

I have a Digitrax setup for my small layout so will be using LocoNet for my signals. But when I build my large dream layout, I want LCC!

Another good book is Dave Abeles’ “Guide to Signals and Interlockings”. Checked it out from the library and the decided to buy it because it has so much great info and practical examples. Someday I want my mid-90’s layout to be half as good as his.

Good luck with signaling, it’s almost hobby in itself.

Nathan

Posted from iPhone

Greetings Chris:

> As far as DCC systems go, if mine failed tomorrow,
> I'm going the TCS route with a ProtoThrottle or
> two. 

That would be a sweet set-up!

Take care and God bless!
Dave

Greetings Nathan:

> I attended one of the LCC sessions at the 2019
> NMRA convention in Salt Lake and it really piqued
> my interest. Met Dana Zinmerli and later bought
> his book “Introduction to Layout Command
> Control”.
I will give his book a look.  Thanks for the tip.

> Also got a chance to meet Dick
> Bronson from RR-Cirkits
The Man.  The Legend!  :-D
He has developed quite a nice system.  He really knows his stuff and is willing the share with others.

> and see his demo LCC setup
> in action, it was slick.
The hardware is certainly plug-n-play, since the unique address is worldwide, so no fear of conflicts when combining modules with friends at a meet.
The configuration is thru JMRI's "Panel Pro".  Once that is done, it runs.  

> As a programmer, the
> concept behind LCC makes a ton of sense and I’m
> surprised there aren’t more vendors adopting it.
Agreed!
It seems like the NMRA was trying to get the LCC standard established before some manufacturers started their own, resulting in a "standards war".  (Which sorta' happened in the early days of DCC.)  Rather than have to be referee for battling manufactuers of competing designs, get the LCC standard out there.  Smart.
Unfortunately, it may take a while before LCC gets traction.  "Build it and they will come."  What it will take is a bunch of success stories.
What would also help is a revamp of the Panel Pro interface, currently it looks like shareware, bare bones.  It is functional, but lacks any bling.  Even a Wizard to help with configurations would be nice.  Maybe some default values?

> I have a Digitrax setup for my small layout so
> will be using LocoNet for my signals. But when I
> build my large dream layout, I want LCC!
Sounds like a winner!

> Another good book is Dave Abeles’ “Guide to
> Signals and Interlockings”. Checked it out from
> the library and the decided to buy it because it
> has so much great info and practical examples.
> Someday I want my mid-90’s layout to be half as
> good as his.
I have his book.  Read it cover-to-cover.  I second your recommendation.  Lots of current info.  Shows the power of Panel Pro.  Too bad it wasn't a PDF with links to a video showing the use of Panel Pro.  Would have saved pages of screen shots.

> Good luck with signaling, it’s almost hobby in
> itself.
Indeed!
It is quite a commitment to implement a signaling system.  
I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences, so I have more points of reference.

Take care and God bless!
Dave
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/23 11:01 by tmotor.

I've been using LCC to run control panels for throwing switches.  Works pretty slick and has serious possibilities.  One of the things that attracted me was the ability to align multiple switches in a staging yard and power on a track with a single pushbutton press.

The LCC group on groups.io is super useful and helpful.  https://groups.io/g/layoutcommandcontrol

Nathan Beauheim
Loveland, CO

Greetings Nathan!

> I've been using LCC to run control panels for
> throwing switches.  Works pretty slick and has
> serious possibilities.  One of the things that
> attracted me was the ability to align multiple
> switches in a staging yard and power on a track
> with a single pushbutton press.
EXCELLENT!  
Thanks for sharing your positive LCC experience.  :-D
I like the idea that an "Event" can be broadcast thru the entire LCC network and any Nodes that need to use that information have access to it immediately.

> The LCC group on groups.io is super useful and
> helpful. 
> https://groups.io/g/layoutcommandcontrol
Great tip!
I read thru their posts for last month and can see Dirk Bronson (RR-CirKits) and Detlef Kurpanek (frequent NMRA LCC Clinic Presenter) are both active on that forum.
They are indeed helpful to folks attempting to get their first set of block signals up and running.  Assuming the hardware is wired correctly, then it is time to set parameters in PanelPro.
​I've decided to join that Group.
Lots of resources for shortening the learning curve.  I'm sure I will be making plenty of Rookie Errors, but fewer after reviewing their helpful hints.

Take care and God bless!
Dave
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/23 07:51 by tmotor.

I’m almost finished with the staging level on my very large layout, the Dominion Southern Railroad. It has full detection installed.

I am building from the ground up for LCC and am working closely with TCS and their new CS-105 to fully exploit what LCC can do.

I expect to start building the second level by the end of June/early July.

The next level will have working signals, where the lower level is all “virtual” signals that the operator will see on their handheld tablet or the dispatcher can verbally instruct them to approach the first visible signal as they arrive on the layout from staging.

Overall, I’m excited to see what else I can do with LCC in terms of automation and operations management.

Posted from iPhone

Sean Hoyden
Broad Run, VA

Greeting Sean!

> I’m almost finished with the staging level on my
> very large layout, the Dominion Southern Railroad.
> It has full detection installed.
> I am building from the ground up for LCC and am
> working closely with TCS and their new CS-105 to
> fully exploit what LCC can do.
> I expect to start building the second level by the
> end of June/early July.
EXCELLENT!  
Sounds like your Dream Layout.  :-D

> The next level will have working signals, where
> the lower level is all “virtual” signals that
> the operator will see on their handheld tablet or
> the dispatcher can verbally instruct them to
> approach the first visible signal as they arrive
> on the layout from staging.
Using the touch screen on a tablet, turnouts can be thrown, and can also be the throttle(s).  :-0
There wouldn't need to be signals for the staging area, since the dispatcher will be directing traffic.  The engineer can look on their tablet to see the trains ahead of them.

> Overall, I’m excited to see what else I can do
> with LCC in terms of automation and operations
> management.
AGREED!
When combined with the power of the JMRI suite of software, it provides the communication needed for large amounts of data to flow between the Nodes.
Here's a video of the potential of JMRI:

     youtube.com/watch?v=xYZ9TMrMnqk        (Please Cut-n-Paste into your browser)

Take care and God bless!
Dave

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Detection and signaling on my layout is all LCC. Nodes are a mix of RR-cirkits and open source. Signals are a mix of NJ, Tomar, BLMA and Atlas, plus a few scratchbuilt.

I've got ABS working currently. The logic for that is inside JMRI, but I have plans to port to a LCC node. Ditto CTC in the future - all LCC driven.


 

Greetings richmondterminal:

> Detection and signaling on my layout is all LCC.
> Nodes are a mix of RR-cirkits and open source.
> Signals are a mix of NJ, Tomar, BLMA and Atlas,
> plus a few scratchbuilt.
Another LCC success story!  :-D
I am inspired to set up a LCC test track for a Proof Of Concept project.  (Not so much to prove LCC works, but prove that I can actually install it.)

> I've got ABS working currently. The logic for that
> is inside JMRI, but I have plans to port to a LCC
> node. Ditto CTC in the future - all LCC driven.
CTC is more involved, but once the hardware is in-place you are well on your way to CTC.

Take care and God bless!
Dave

I don't have plans at present to include signaling only my layout but it's nice to know there will be that ability with my new TCS DCC system that just arrive today.

richmondterminal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Detection and signaling on my layout is all LCC.
> Nodes are a mix of RR-cirkits and open source.
> Signals are a mix of NJ, Tomar, BLMA and Atlas,
> plus a few scratchbuilt.
>
> I've got ABS working currently. The logic for that
> is inside JMRI, but I have plans to port to a LCC
> node. Ditto CTC in the future - all LCC driven.
>
>
>  

That’s the thing that appeals to me is LCC can run the signals without a computer for things like ABS mode. For full CTC, the computer or panel is still needed. And as someone else mentioned, the automation options are intriguing.

Nathan

Posted from iPhone