Passenger Trains > LD Bilevel procurement is not dead: RPA

RPA just published a great article by Jim Mathews about the Bilevel order.

Amtrak now expects to select a builder for its bi-level Superliner fleet replacement procurement in 2026, but will also speed plans to ask industry to bid on single-level long-distance equipment replacements as well.Despite rumors of the Superliner replacement being put “on hold,” your Association can confirm that this procurement remains underway. The supplier selection and contract award date have slipped several times, leading to speculation that the procurement might have to be scrapped. That’s not the case.
...
Amtrak is also developing an RFP for replacement of some single-level LD equipment that should be released to the marketplace later this summer. Procuring single-level long-distance equipment was originally only included in Phase Four of Amtrak’s long-distance fleet replacement plan, slated to happen after the Superliner replacement base order and two rounds of optional orders had been put in motion.

I won't paste the whole article, but it has a great explanation as to why the delay is largely on the carbuilders' side, not Amtrak. 
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/25 17:25 by Paniolo_man.

I'll believe it when I see it, they claimed they were gonna get this done by the end of last year!

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/25 17:05 by ProAmtrak.

If the delay is due to the car builders, it is most likely because of the elevators, and starting off with too damn many types of cars.

So it as usual appears to be RPA defending Mama Amtrak from blame who spec'd out something that anyone is reluctant to build, and passing the blame to them.

They are not even questioning why they insist on bi-levels for the whole western trans-con system when it is just Autotrain driving their whole decision, nor why any Superliner II's are not getting a rebuild for continued use there past 2035.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/25 02:59 by joemvcnj.

Yeah right.

2026 hahahaha, and how many 'new' acelas are in service today?

This sounds like just more "Happy Talk"

But, Happy Talk (Spin) is a good way to cover up a
dismal Management failure to order Long Haul Cars.

If you look past all the excuses, reasons, and Blame Games (it's the Builder's fault),
you will see that new LD cars have been pushed far into the future (5 years at least).

Since the current Superliners are old, and can't last forever--it's possible AmManagement is playing
a "Let 'um Die on the Vine" game.  LD trains won't survive without new equipment.

 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the delay is due to the car builders, it is
> most likely because of the elevators, and starting
> off with too damn many types of cars.
>
> So it as usual appears to be RPA defending Mama
> Amtrak from blame who spec'd out something that
> anyone is reluctant to build, and passing the
> blame to them.
>
> They are not even questioning why they insist on
> bi-levels for the whole western trans-con system
> when it is just Autotrain driving their whole
> decision, nor why any Superliner II's are not
> getting a rebuild for continued use there past
> 2035.

This is typical of RPA.  Amtrak can do no wrong.  Someone else is always to blame for Amtrak's screw ups.  There was an article, I believe in Passenger Train Journal, that compared the proposals for the fleet replacement between Via and Amtrak.  Basically, Via worked with the builders on car design and got what they wanted including the possibility of dome cars.  Amtrak, on the other hand, decided they needed to reinvent the wheel and the car builders balked. And yes, the car builders are not at all happy about building new Superliners.

The main problem was developing a 1,000 plus page specification list for a new fleet of bi-level LD cars and NOT involving the car builders MORE integrally in the process. Sure, they did an RFI, but it still should have been more collaborative as all Amtrak did was foster an expensive procurement process before anything is built. And again - all senior onboard service staff (the top 30) should have been brought into a room and feedback sought. 

The procurement process can be as fast or as slow as the people pulling the strings want it to be.

Posted from Android

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The procurement process can be as fast or as slow
> as the people pulling the strings want it to be.
>
> Posted from Android

Now THAT is the real answer!!!!

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the delay is due to the car builders, it is
> most likely because of the elevators, and starting
> off with too damn many types of cars.
>
> So it as usual appears to be RPA defending Mama
> Amtrak from blame who spec'd out something that
> anyone is reluctant to build, and passing the
> blame to them.
>
> They are not even questioning why they insist on
> bi-levels for the whole western trans-con system
> when it is just Autotrain driving their whole
> decision, nor why any Superliner II's are not
> getting a rebuild for continued use there past
> 2035.

I appreaciate RPA addressing this subject as it's been a discussion for some time.  Addressing single level long distance procurment is a new subject that is now part of this is a great thing! 

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The procurement process can be as fast or as slow
> as the people pulling the strings want it to be.

Engineering and design is not instantaneous. When this is rushed, you end up with things like Chargers and Venture cars.

DutchDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The procurement process can be as fast or as
> slow
> > as the people pulling the strings want it to be.
>
>
> Engineering and design is not instantaneous. When
> this is rushed, you end up with things like
> Chargers and Venture cars.


Cars and locomotives that are turning trouble free mile after mile in Florida?

While some on this board are absolutely convinced this will all get worked out Amtrak's way given enough time, I keep wondering in all these discussions about what if no builder steps up and is willing to build it their way? What happens then? Scrap the whole idea? Can't force the builders to make something they don't want to make and won't profit from. Wouldn't that force Amtrak to have to change aspects of their proposal, big or small, even for double-deck or ADA elevators or whatever reasons? Maybe interested builders right now should collude and refuse to move forward until Amtrak changes things, or do what the freight railroads would do and price themselves out of the process? And if Amtrak really has to have their way, make 'em pay through the nose since it's not their money anyways...

JG

jgilmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While some on this board are absolutely convinced
> this will all get worked out Amtrak's way given
> enough time, I keep wondering in all these
> discussions about what if no builder steps up and
> is willing to build it their way? What happens
> then? Scrap the whole idea? Can't force the
> builders to make something they don't want to make
> and won't profit from. Wouldn't that force Amtrak
> to have to change aspects of their proposal, big
> or small, even for double-deck or ADA elevators or
> whatever reasons? Maybe interested builders right
> now should collude and refuse to move forward
> until Amtrak changes things, or do what the
> freight railroads would do and price themselves
> out of the process? And if Amtrak really has to
> have their way, make 'em pay through the nose
> since it's not their money anyways...
>
> JG

Barron's has a related article today about the US auto industry.  The industry is upmarketing its product, nobody wants to produce a basic, low frills car or truck.  "This is what we want to make" because we can make a profit on it.

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DutchDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The procurement process can be as fast or as
> > slow
> > > as the people pulling the strings want it to
> be.
> >
> >
> > Engineering and design is not instantaneous.
> When
> > this is rushed, you end up with things like
> > Chargers and Venture cars.
>
>
> Cars and locomotives that are turning trouble free
> mile after mile in Florida?

A quick internet search reveals that Brightline has a lot of mechanical issues that cause delays and cancellations. Since Brightline is a private company they don't have to report the information or make the information easy to find.

DutchDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Typhoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DutchDragon Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The procurement process can be as fast or
> as
> > > slow
> > > > as the people pulling the strings want it
> to
> > be.
> > >
> > >
> > > Engineering and design is not instantaneous.
> > When
> > > this is rushed, you end up with things like
> > > Chargers and Venture cars.
> >
> >
> > Cars and locomotives that are turning trouble
> free
> > mile after mile in Florida?
>
> A quick internet search reveals that Brightline
> has a lot of mechanical issues that cause delays
> and cancellations. Since Brightline is a private
> company they don't have to report the information
> or make the information easy to find.

A quick internet search reveals a 92% on time record for Brightline.  That is for all delays, including mechanical.   That isn't "a lot".

And that was easy to find.  Go to investor reports on Brightline's website, and click on the May report.

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DutchDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Typhoon Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > DutchDragon Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > The procurement process can be as fast or
> > as
> > > > slow
> > > > > as the people pulling the strings want it
> > to
> > > be.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Engineering and design is not
> instantaneous.
> > > When
> > > > this is rushed, you end up with things like
> > > > Chargers and Venture cars.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cars and locomotives that are turning trouble
> > free
> > > mile after mile in Florida?
> >
> > A quick internet search reveals that Brightline
> > has a lot of mechanical issues that cause
> delays
> > and cancellations. Since Brightline is a
> private
> > company they don't have to report the
> information
> > or make the information easy to find.
>
> A quick internet search reveals a 92% on time
> record for Brightline.  That is for all delays,
> including mechanical.   That isn't "a lot".
>
> And that was easy to find.  Go to investor
> reports on Brightline's website, and click on the
> May report.

It would be an excercise in futility to quantify "a lot" with a percentage.

On a somewhat related note, Metra's on time percentage for May was 96% - 4 percent better than Brightline.

Metra operates more different types of equipment over half a dozen different railroads and yet their OTP is better than Brightline. Aside from the Siemens equipment, I can't think of a reason why Brightline's on time performance would be lower than Metra.

DutchDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
 I can't think of a reason
> why Brightline's on time performance would be
> lower than Metra.

Besides the fact that it's an apples to oranges comparison, no...

JG

jgilmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DutchDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>  I can't think of a reason
> > why Brightline's on time performance would be
> > lower than Metra.
>
> Besides the fact that it's an apples to oranges
> comparison, no...

Both are regional passenger railroads in the USA. Why do you think they are "apples and oranges" on comparison?