Passenger Trains > If the CZ would have survived to Amtrak day?

Would have Amtrak rebuilt more dome cars and valued them more?  and got eastern based Amtrak leaders seeing the possibilities of those  cars

With maybe train specific equipment would have been  in route pools more so,   would Oakland  service been daily from the get go? 

the tri weekly service that occur ed on with death of the CZ would have  not happened, RG expenses would been greater , greater incentive  for RG to join Amtrak, WP would have joined to, so at least Amtrak would have gotten the whole CZ fleet perhaps?

even if it shifted to SP routing

CZ is one train that got Amtrak movement kick started  in earnest?

almost made it...

but at the cost of ridng the UP  on the overland route..  and the ancient ski train perhaps



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/25 23:29 by dan.

If ATK goes in with VIA on the latter's new car order, they could have dome cars again.  Don't hold your breath.  It would make too much sense.

-John

dan , the annual losses to the Western Pacific for operating the CZ were a million dollars a year . Another year of those losses would have ruined the WP. Having said that , I wish it could have lasted another year and two months until May 1, 1971 , the start of Amtrak. 

dan Wrote:
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> Would have Amtrak rebuilt more dome cars and
> valued them more?  and got eastern based Amtrak
> leaders seeing the possibilities of those  cars
>
Why would being based in the "east" make a difference?

Dome cars were regularly assigned to the Capitol Limited until the conversion to Superliner equuipment.  In more recent years, a dome car was occaisionally placed in the consist of the Adirondack.  Both of these trains served the east.  In fact, they were the last Amtrak trains to have dome cars.  

A few railroads did not join Amtrak when it was formed.  Eventually, their trains were either discontinued (i,e, Reading and Rock Island) or the railroads joined Amtrak (Rio Grande and Southern).  Their late joining Amtrak made no difference in terms of current service and operations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/25 06:48 by RuleG.

Honestly, Amtrak seems to have some weird aversion to ordering equipment off the shelf with minor modifications.  Every order, with a few exceptions like the Horizons, seems to have to be extra special such that new designs are needed, extra time, and of course extra money.  There are many examples from the new Acela to the LD fleet discussion.  I admire Canada's step forward, but Amtrak is stagnant. 

To your point, jumping on the VIA order would reduce the cost of each unit for both carriers, expedite the order, and get things rolling, probably before Amtrak even figures out what it wants!  That is an exaggeration, but you know.  Just move forward on something, Amtrak!  Stop studying things to death and MOVE.

jcaestecker Wrote:
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> If ATK goes in with VIA on the latter's new car
> order, they could have dome cars again.  Don't
> hold your breath.  It would make too much sense.
>
> -John

jcaestecker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If ATK goes in with VIA on the latter's new car
> order, they could have dome cars again.  Don't
> hold your breath.  It would make too much sense.

Had VIA placed an order for new cars? Does anyone have a link or other information they can share?

DutchDragon Wrote:

>
> Had VIA placed an order for new cars? Does anyone
> have a link or other information they can share?

This is what VIA would like.  It will take a massive investment from the federal government.  Although I'm not a negative person by nature, being aware of the situation with future government spending I have my doubts we will ever see it.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/passenger/via-rail-seeks-dome-cars-as-part-of-pan-canadian-fleet-renewal/67974.article
 

There are a lot of trains/railroads that I wished lasted until Amtrak day and maybe would have continued.  I wish the EL's Lake Cities made it to Amtrak and continued, especially the places in Ohio and the Southern Tier of New York.  However I suspect that Amtak would not have continued service.

> > Would have Amtrak rebuilt more dome cars and
> > valued them more?  and got eastern based
> Amtrak
> > leaders seeing the possibilities of those 
> cars
> >
> Why would being based in the "east" make a
> difference?
>
> Dome cars were regularly assigned to the Capitol
> Limited until the conversion to Superliner
> equipment.  In more recent years, a dome car was
> occasionally placed in the consist of the
> Adirondack.  Both of these trains served the
> east.  In fact, they were the last Amtrak trains
> to have dome cars.  
>
> A few railroads did not join Amtrak when it was
> formed.  Eventually, their trains were either
> discontinued (i,e, Reading and Rock Island) or the
> railroads joined Amtrak (Rio Grande and
> Southern).  Their late joining Amtrak made no
> difference in terms of current service and
> operations.

Many routes in the east had domes with Amtrak at various times,  but the 4 routes where domes would shine would have been the CZ, starlight, EB, NCH, and promoted great tourism in the summer months, not a cure all for Feb empty seats, and a/c systems needed greater capacity, the BN cars were maintained well as well as the CZ if they just operated those trains with predecessor equipment.

The San Diego trains could have used hi level cars would help for better viewing and domes, Harper's ferry trains too, later the pioneer and desert wind and the chief all dome worthy, hell every train that didn't have height restrictions.  Domes would ended up being dirty too with Amtrak.

    Amtrak being Philly Wilmington and DC based  was  along way from the folks seeing domes for their potential, just added expensive cars requiring more work.

Lets hope these airo cars work well in our near future.  rebuild the superliner shells, and hi levels.

njmidland Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are a lot of trains/railroads that I wished
> lasted until Amtrak day and maybe would have
> continued.  I wish the EL's Lake Cities made it
> to Amtrak and continued, especially the places in
> Ohio and the Southern Tier of New York.  However
> I suspect that Amtak would not have continued
> service.

Amtrak just did whatever it was told.  The decisions on where Amtrak would go were made by James McClellan circa 1970 who had a tiny vision for passenger rail in America, as evidenced by the train massacres on April 30, 1971, the inability to see where rapid growth was already occurring in the country (in the Sunbelt), that the oil shortages of the 1970's would provide a renewed boost of ridership, and how service could be restructured to minimize losses and even make a buck (hint, not by only running on train a day per route).

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amtrak just did whatever it was told.  The
> decisions on where Amtrak would go were made by
> James McClellan circa 1970 who had a tiny vision
> for passenger rail in America, as evidenced by the
> train massacres on April 30, 1971, the inability
> to see where rapid growth was already occurring in
> the country (in the Sunbelt), that the oil
> shortages of the 1970's would provide a renewed
> boost of ridership, and how service could be
> restructured to minimize losses and even make a
> buck (hint, not by only running on train a day per
> route).

That's an interesting observation. From my perspective, I'd say that it appears correct.

And then subsequent routes that were added (one 403B - as it was called back then) were became a political pork dinner...........

jcaestecker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If ATK goes in with VIA on the latter's new car
> order, they could have dome cars again.  Don't
> hold your breath.  It would make too much sense.
>
> -John

First, Amtrak would have to learn how to wash windows. No point in having a dome car if it ran around filthy like the current windows are doing.

Posted from iPhone

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Many routes in the east had domes with Amtrak at
> various times, 

There were not that many eastern routes which had domes.  As I recall, the only routes serving the east which had domes on a regular basis were the Capitol Limited and Adirondack and, perhaps, the Cardinal.

but the 4 routes where domes
> would shine would have been the CZ,

Amtrak's California Zephyr never had domes, except when private cars were attached.  Its predecessor, the San Francisco Zephyr, had a dome car assigned for much, but not all of its existence.

starlight, EB,
> NCH, and promoted great tourism in the summer
> months, not a cure all for Feb empty seats, and
> a/c systems needed greater capacity, the BN cars
> were maintained well as well as the CZ if they
> just operated those trains with predecessor
> equipment.
>
> The San Diego trains could have used hi level cars
> would help for better viewing and domes, Harper's
> ferry trains too

The train serving Harpers Ferry is the Capitol Limited.  As I previously stated, it had a dome car prior to conversion to Superliner equipment.

, later the pioneer and desert
> wind and the chief all dome worthy, hell every
> train that didn't have height restrictions. 
> Domes would ended up being dirty too with Amtrak.

I rode in an ex-Southern Pacific dome on the Coast Starlight once or twice.  That dome was dirty.  I also rode in domes on the North Coast Hiawatha (once), San Francisco Zephyr (once) and the Capitol Limited (several times)..  They were all clean.
>
>     Amtrak being Philly Wilmington and DC
> based  was  along way from the folks seeing
> domes for their potential, just added expensive
> cars requiring more work.

This implies that Amtrak staff have no familiarity with western routes (either by previously living in the areas served by those trains or going out to those areas as Amtrak employees).  I emphatically reject that assumption.
>
> Lets hope these airo cars work well in our near
> future.  rebuild the superliner shells, and hi
> levels.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/25 16:46 by RuleG.

njmidland Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are a lot of trains/railroads that I wished
> lasted until Amtrak day and maybe would have
> continued.  I wish the EL's Lake Cities made it
> to Amtrak and continued, especially the places in
> Ohio and the Southern Tier of New York.  However
> I suspect that Amtak would not have continued
> service.

hell if amtrak did not even have  NYCentral service...

UP951West Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dan , the annual losses to the Western Pacific for
> operating the CZ were a million dollars a year .
> Another year of those losses would have ruined the
> WP. Having said that , I wish it could have lasted
> another year and two months until May 1, 1971 ,
> the start of Amtrak. 

Portrait of a silver lady spelled that out for us, wrecks, the whole CZ saga, it would have kick started a merger wave perhaps?

Superliner trains don’t need dome cars. Sightseer lounge cars have plenty of windows.

Posted from iPhone

stash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Superliner trains don’t need dome cars.
> Sightseer lounge cars have plenty of windows.
>
> Posted from iPhone

No forward views.

a dome would make a good transition

The dome car on 29/30 during the latter part of the 80s to early 90s was a real treat. IRRC many of these cars were former NP in origin.

Posted from iPhone

They also put a dome on the Lake Shore Limited at Albany-Rennsalear for a period of time too. Actually, I think a wreck in upstate NY with the Lake Shore Limited train set and the dome car, sealed their general demise or further cutback on the Amtrak system.