Passenger Trains > Why doesn't Amtrak buy SD70MACH locomotives?

Why doesn't Amtrak buy rebuilt SD70MACH locomotives like Metra has? Someone in another forum responded because of "federal laws, regulations and policies" but I can't find any of those that would prohibit it.

Is there actually a federal law, regulations or policy prohibiting this, or is this just another case of Amtrak not thinking outside the box?

DutchDragon Wrote:
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> Why doesn't Amtrak buy rebuilt SD70MACH
> locomotives like Metra has? Someone in another
> forum responded because of "federal laws,
> regulations and policies" but I can't find any of
> those that would prohibit it.
>
> Is there actually a federal law, regulations or
> policy prohibiting this, or is this just another
> case of Amtrak not thinking outside the box?

I don't think Amtrak has had good experiance with freight derived C-C trucked passenger locomotives. METRA's use case involves lower top speeds and a greater need for acceleration.  There might also be emissions requirements baked into whatever funding it had to purchase the Chargers. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/25 05:55 by mbrotzman.

mbrotzman Wrote:
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> I don't think Amtrak has had good experiance with
> freight derived C-C trucked passenger locomotives.
> METRA's use case involves lower top speeds and a
> greater need for acceleration.  There might also
> be emissions requirements baked into whatever
> funding it had to purchase the Chargers. 

Really now. I believe Metra runs up to 80 mph with them. Western LDTs only are scheduled above 80 mph on a small portion of all of the routes. Amtrak would be pragmatic with the Western LDTs to only schedule them up to 79 mph. Myself, I would argue for 75 mph maximum.

I am also curious if B-1 trucks track better than C trucks. 

Unless Amtrak does something about the power quickly, its existence may be at stake.

I think that you are correct about the Chargers.

I would think they could redo about any frieght locomotive and convert old units or baggage cars to HEP / Power cars. 

Well, for one thing there was the SDP-40F.  Railroad memories are long, in some cases.  While the Amtrak's F40 paved the way for MARC,s GP-40 based GP-39-2's and GP-40-2 H wide cabs as well as NJT and MTA-N's similarly freight based 4 truck locomotives, there wasn't the same level of comfort with 6-axle freight based locomotives.  Even the MARC locomotives required snubbers between the trucks and the frame to dampen the tendency to hunt at high speed.  Hyatt bearings also helped reduce the hunting compared to the Timken GG bearings.  Being able to maintain time-table speeds and achieve scheduled times also was a consideration.  Anyway, speaking from experience from back in the day at MARC....

I would also expect the ALC-42 Chargers to still be on warrenty, which makes repairs less of Amtrak's problem. In fact the trend has been towards extended maintenance contracts where Seimens is responsible for all regular repair work. This matters because Amtrak would not be currently set up for EMD 710 repair and maintenance like Metra is and Amtrak would be less likely to invest in such a capability on a temporary basis. 

Better options would be to wet lease equipment from local partners like Metro North or CDoT to free up P42's, which can then go into the LD pool. 

Will Amtrak be using federal funds to buy these "new" locomotives?

Posted from Android

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Will Amtrak be using federal funds to buy these
> "new" locomotives?

I think that is the key. Remember recently acquired, rebuilt GP38-2 units have been spotted on the  Downeaster trains. Between reduced use of freight railroad power, more reliable service which reduces equipment turn times, and positive impacts on passengers carried, I believe that they could be paid for out of operating savings. As far as not being set up for maintaining the 710, get a full service contract for major points and contract with the freight carriers for servicing at the lesser points.

To use a cliche, where there is a will, there is a way.

 

Why does this question get asked every week?

mbrotzman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DutchDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why doesn't Amtrak buy rebuilt SD70MACH
> > locomotives like Metra has? Someone in another
> > forum responded because of "federal laws,
> > regulations and policies" but I can't find any
> of
> > those that would prohibit it.
> >
> > Is there actually a federal law, regulations or
> > policy prohibiting this, or is this just
> another
> > case of Amtrak not thinking outside the box?
>
> I don't think Amtrak has had good experiance with
> freight derived C-C trucked passenger locomotives.


How did you come up with THAT? Going all the way back into the late 1960s, the Great Northern, Milwaukee Road, and Santa Fe purchased SDP40/SDP45?FP45 units for passenger service, with great success. The Santa Fe even ran them 100+ MPH. Later, the Amtrak SDP40F units operated on the Santa Fe at speeds to 100 MPH, with no problems.


> METRA's use case involves lower top speeds and a
> greater need for acceleration.  There might also
> be emissions requirements baked into whatever
> funding it had to purchase the Chargers. 

AmtrakMidwest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this question get asked every week?

Now THAT is a damned good question!!!!!

numerous accounts of the fast forties going faster than the 83 mph gearing too

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Will Amtrak be using federal funds to buy these
> > "new" locomotives?
>
> I think that is the key. Remember recently
> acquired, rebuilt GP38-2 units have been spotted
> on the  Downeaster trains. Between reduced use
> of freight railroad power, more reliable service
> which reduces equipment turn times, and positive
> impacts on passengers carried, I believe that they
> could be paid for out of operating savings. As far
> as not being set up for maintaining the 710, get a
> full service contract for major points and
> contract with the freight carriers for servicing
> at the lesser points.
>
> To use a cliche, where there is a will, there is a
> way.
>
>  

I would suggest one way to do this is to have an investment pool finance the locomotives and rent them to Amtrak. A contractor would do the maintenance, don't let Amtrak touch anyone other than the fuel cap.

Maybe run them on specific routes, where the designated contractor sets up service terminals.

Amtrak pays a monthly fee etc for horsepower hours and miles. Exactly like Oakway and LMX did 30 years ago. (Except BN eventually wrestled back the maintenance, under contractor supervision)

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ts1457 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Will Amtrak be using federal funds to buy
> these
> > > "new" locomotives?
> >
> > I think that is the key. Remember recently
> > acquired, rebuilt GP38-2 units have been
> spotted
> > on the  Downeaster trains. Between reduced
> use
> > of freight railroad power, more reliable
> service
> > which reduces equipment turn times, and
> positive
> > impacts on passengers carried, I believe that
> they
> > could be paid for out of operating savings. As
> far
> > as not being set up for maintaining the 710, get
> a
> > full service contract for major points and
> > contract with the freight carriers for
> servicing
> > at the lesser points.
> >
> > To use a cliche, where there is a will, there is
> a
> > way.
> >
> >  
>
> I would suggest one way to do this is to have an
> investment pool finance the locomotives and rent
> them to Amtrak. A contractor would do the
> maintenance, don't let Amtrak touch anyone other
> than the fuel cap.
>
> Maybe run them on specific routes, where the
> designated contractor sets up service terminals.
>
> Amtrak pays a monthly fee etc for horsepower hours
> and miles. Exactly like Oakway and LMX did 30
> years ago. (Except BN eventually wrestled back the
> maintenance, under contractor supervision)

I was thinking this may have been the direction Amtrak was going with in the ALC42 order, Avelia train set order, etc. Why hasn't Amtrak been more stern with Siemens to get at least the ALC42 locomotives fixed and more reliable, especially with the warranty and whatever service/maintenance contract they are under with Siemens. If you one month old refrigerator broke after purchase and it had a warranty, what would happen? Rhetorical question. There's got to be more info on the Siemens-Amtrak relationship than what meets the eye. It's got to be more of a struggle in the back office I'd think! But then again, it's Amtrak we are talking about.  

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ts1457 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Will Amtrak be using federal funds to buy
> these
> > > "new" locomotives?
> >
> > I think that is the key. Remember recently
> > acquired, rebuilt GP38-2 units have been
> spotted
> > on the  Downeaster trains. Between reduced
> use
> > of freight railroad power, more reliable
> service
> > which reduces equipment turn times, and
> positive
> > impacts on passengers carried, I believe that
> they
> > could be paid for out of operating savings. As
> far
> > as not being set up for maintaining the 710, get
> a
> > full service contract for major points and
> > contract with the freight carriers for
> servicing
> > at the lesser points.
> >
> > To use a cliche, where there is a will, there is
> a
> > way.
> >
> >  
>
> I would suggest one way to do this is to have an
> investment pool finance the locomotives and rent
> them to Amtrak. A contractor would do the
> maintenance, don't let Amtrak touch anyone other
> than the fuel cap.
>
> Maybe run them on specific routes, where the
> designated contractor sets up service terminals.
>
> Amtrak pays a monthly fee etc for horsepower hours
> and miles. Exactly like Oakway and LMX did 30
> years ago. (Except BN eventually wrestled back the
> maintenance, under contractor supervision)

heck do it with cars too, we will even wash them...

I think this reflects the frustration of folks who want Amtrak to succeed by being more proactive about addressing its motive power reliability issues.
Oliver Barrett

AmtrakMidwest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this question get asked every week?

My recollection on the Oakway / LMX deals is that the manufacturer guaranteed a high availability of power each month of the contract. 95% availability, and they made a few units "extra" to assure that target would be met.

Drop under 95% (etc) and the manufacturer pays the lessee (BN, Amtrak, etc) a penalty

AmtrakMidwest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this question get asked every week?

Because it's never been answered. There has been a lot of guessing and speculation, but no actual facts.

DutchDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AmtrakMidwest Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why does this question get asked every week?
>
> Because it's never been answered. There has been a
> lot of guessing and speculation, but no actual
> facts.

So you think if you keep asking the same question to the same group of people you’ll get a different response?

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AmtrakMidwest Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why does this question get asked every week?
>
> Now THAT is a damned good question!!!!!

Because of the SIEMENS Crappers.......oops, I mean Chargers.