Passenger Trains > Passenger Trains is Dark Territory

Hello all,

I am having an ongoing discussion with a very old and dear friend about TT/Trainorder vs. Track Warrant Control (or similar, i.e. DTC, Form D, etc) for trains operating in dark territory, specifically passenger trains. I know of many instances of TWC or similar authorities in signalled territory, but nothing comes to mind for dark territory. I did a Google search, and did run across many references to some extensive amount of dark territory for passenger trains in Canada. After considerable thought, I do recall that my trips on BC Railway behind steam was in dark territory. I also thought that perhaps Maine's Downeaster service might encounter this, but indications are that the Guilford track is signalled as they are either now running at 79mph or are perhaps still fighting that ridiculous battle with Guilford. Perhaps some of the service to Vermont or something out west meets this criteria. My contention is that TWC is, in essence, a manual block system controlled by the dispatcher via radio or telephone (including FAX) that allows tremendous operating flexibility, especially on light density lines. I personally prefer TT/TO from a historical perspective, but my experience as a conductor and, later, dispatcher (including about 600 miles of dark TWC territory on the NS GA division's Savannah/Southwest and Brunswick lines) can't help but put me in the TWC column, especially for the shortline project I'm working on. What are some of your thoughts on TT/TO vs. TWC?

Thanks,
Mike

The two dark territories I am familiar with are the NECR (St. Albans - Brattleboro) and Clarendon & Pittsford/Vermont Rail System (Whitehall-Rutland). On the C&P, the crew on the Ethan Allen gets a radio clearance when they reach Whitehall, which authorizes them to run (usually all the way to Rutland); at Rutland, they "give up" the authority after arriving on the station track. Presume the proceedure is similar on the NECR, except for more opposing trains that may require shorter blocks so that meets can take place.

Andy

The aforementioned lines are the only examples I can think of Amtrak running in dark territory, but there are several such cases on commuter lines, at least in the northeast. The Metro-North Harlem Line between Southeast and Wassaic, NY, is unsignalled, as are the New Canaan, Danbury, and Waterbury branches off the New Haven Line. The New Canaan is a single block, and traffic on the Waterbury is sparse enough that meets are rare, but the Danbury does have some meets in its schedule.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some dark territory on the fringes of NJT and MBTA commuter rail, too, though I can't think of specific examples.

Whoa hold minute, both New Canaan and Brewster to Wassaic are signalled and have been for years, the New Cannaan brach as been signalled for over 23 years and Brewster to Wassaic has CTC/CAB since the line was extended to Wassaic.
yes both Waterbury and Danbury branches are manual block with form M (MNCR equivelent to form D Norac)authority. the Danbury branch still sees two meets a day at Wilton.

Crawfordsville, IN to Indianapolis are Dark Territory if I am not mistaken on the Hoosier State/Cardinal.
Cheers,
Nick

Here is a related thread from the past:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1236153,1237095#msg-1237095


TWC is a vastly superior system to TT/TO. The key feature with TWC is that there is less information for a crew to interpret which adds to safety. With TT/TO, crews had to mentally integrate multiple information sources to govern their movement: the rulebook, multiple train orders, clearance, timetable, bulletins, registers, signals, flags/indicators, and timepieces.

With TWC, the computer behind the dispatcher's instructions helps eliminate conflicts and mistakes. In addition, TW's can be voided and re-issued real time via radio as situations change. For freight, it also helps now that the conductor is on the headend with the engineer.

Bob

Unbelievable.....No, wait. It SHOULD be unbelievable but it isn't.

NGotwalt Wrote:
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> Crawfordsville, IN to Indianapolis are Dark
> Territory if I am not mistaken on the Hoosier
> State/Cardinal.
> Cheers,
> Nick

The Kentucky Cardinal ran between Jeffersonville In to Indianapolis (about 120 miles) with only one signal at the yard in Seymour. Everything was TWC. Ofcourse, the whole trip was slightly faster than restricted speed... speed limit was 30MPH. I made two roundtrips along the route and never heard the dispatcher talk to any other trains and never saw anything else move along the route. Amtrak covered the route at night.

toledopatch Wrote:
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> The aforementioned lines are the only examples I
> can think of Amtrak running in dark territory, but
> there are several such cases on commuter lines, at
> least in the northeast. The Metro-North Harlem
> Line between Southeast and Wassaic, NY, is
> unsignalled, as are the New Canaan, Danbury, and
> Waterbury branches off the New Haven Line. The New
> Canaan is a single block, and traffic on the
> Waterbury is sparse enough that meets are rare,
> but the Danbury does have some meets in its
> schedule.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if there's some dark
> territory on the fringes of NJT and MBTA commuter
> rail, too, though I can't think of specific
> examples.

Guilford/Pan Am is full signals for Amtrak from CPF-LJ (Lowell Junction, MA), where the PAR mainline Lowell-Lawrence joins it, until at least the Portland Amtrak station. Trains operate at up to 79 mph along this stretch. I believe it is all Form Ds from not far past that point, but Amtrak does not go beyond that station. Track is FRA Class IV from Portland to CPF-LJ.

As for the MBTA, as far as I know there aren't any dark stretches, at least where I am on the northern half of the MBTA system. MBTA trains usually do require a NORAC Form D from the ST (Springfield Terminal, technically the operator of the tracks) District 2 dispatcher to perform a move at Hall interlocking on the Haverhill line, which is just under half a mile past the Haverhill station. This facilitates the crossover move from the outbound to the inbound tracks. I think this is just for the crossover at Hall, since I believe it is slow speed and unsignaled and hand-throw. Otherwise this crossover is not used by PAR or Amtrak trains. They may also need a Form D to go into the equipment storage spotting area at night at Bradford station, which also is not used by PAR or Amtrak trains.

Edited: Memory failed me. Track may be Class IV to Portland, not Class 3. I just remember the huge stink Amtrak put up how Guilford/PAR was Class 3 and Amtrak wanted an exemption to run at 79 mph. GRS/PAR wanted to at 59 mph as safe track speed. I just searched and found something that said it was Class IV, but you wouldn't need an exemption. Apparently the track is maintained to Class IV standards. It is 115 lb CWR.

Track is also owned by the MBTA from LJ to the MA/NH state line at Rosemont, MA/Plaistow, NH, and Pan Am Railways beyond that.

http://www.trainridersne.org/WebPages/TRNE_BBoard/I0013F970.0/STBDecision79MPH.pdf

I believe passenger trains are restricted to 59mph,freights 49mph,depending on track conditions, in dark territory? The former L&N line That the Sunset Limited used, when they were still running east of New Orleans to Florida, was dark territory from Flomaton AL to Tallahassee FL. Former SAL line from there to Jacksonville was ABS? All CSX now.

> Guilford/Pan Am is full signals for Amtrak from
> CPF-LJ (Lowell Junction, MA), where the PAR
> mainline Lowell-Lawrence joins it, until at least
> the Portland Amtrak station. Trains operate at up
> to 79 mph along this stretch....Track is FRA
> Class 3 from Portland to CPF-LJ.

You mean they're running 79 mph on Class 3 track?

> I believe passenger trains are restricted to
> 59mph,freights 49mph,depending on track
> conditions, in dark territory?

Don't forget-- you don't have to have ABS to exceed 59. Manual block is enough.

Jaap Wrote:
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> Whoa hold minute, both New Canaan and Brewster
> to Wassaic are signalled and have been for years,
> the New Cannaan brach as been signalled for over
> 23 years and Brewster to Wassaic has CTC/CAB since
> the line was extended to Wassaic.
> yes both Waterbury and Danbury branches are
> manual block with form M (MNCR equivelent to form
> D Norac)authority. the Danbury branch still sees
> two meets a day at Wilton.

Where are the signals on the New Canaan? Or is it just one long signal block between New Canaan station and Glenbrook?

I didn't know the upper Harlem had been signalled when the Wassaic extension was done. Thanks for the info.

Metro north only has signals at interlockings so on New Canaan the signal is at CP 235 and in New Cannan at CP 307 just north of
Richmond hill, the territory between the two interlockings is 5 cabsignal blocks.

Amtrak has for some years had a policy of getting off "dark" railroad. That's one reason why trains were cut back from St. Petersburg to TPA (it's dark). So is the route from Chattahoochee to Flomaton (east of Chattahoochee used to be SAL CTC, and I assume still is). Indianapolis (Ben Davis Tower, specifically) to Crawfordsville is still dark, and so was Fox Lake to Janesville (route of the "Janesville Javelin").

Other than those and the routes mentioned, I don't believe Amtrak currently operates on any dark territory. For the record, FRA Class 3 allows 60 MPH for passenger, Class 4 79. The Downeaster route is all CTC. Of course, if Maine extends the trains to Augusta and/or Rockland, that's all dark.

In Canada, most of the route from London to Windsor is dark, and VIA operates at 100 MPH in places. So it CAN be done...just adds a little pucker factor for the engineer.

FRA rules mandate need for signal system at speeds fro 60 mph and higher, it mandates Cabsignal or PTC on speeds of 80 mph and higer. so we don't care what the Canucks do, the FRA is not governing north of the border.

TheOssman Wrote:
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> As for the MBTA, as far as I know there aren't any
> dark stretches, at least where I am on the
> northern half of the MBTA system. MBTA trains
> usually do require a NORAC Form D from the ST
>

The MBTA South Side lines are all signalled as well.

Tom Coughlin

Jaap Wrote:
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> Metro north only has signals at interlockings so
> on New Canaan the signal is at CP 235 and in New
> Canaan at CP 307 just north of
> Richmond hill, the territory between the two
> interlockings is 5 cabsignal blocks.


Oh, of course. Unlike on the main line, there never were waysides to be replaced with a cab-signal system, so I was unaware this installation had ever happened.

tomcough Wrote:
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> TheOssman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As for the MBTA, as far as I know there aren't
> any
> > dark stretches, at least where I am on the
> > northern half of the MBTA system. MBTA trains
> > usually do require a NORAC Form D from the ST
> >
>
> The MBTA South Side lines are all signalled as
> well.
>
> Tom Coughlin

OK, I wasn't sure if maybe one of the branches was dark.

In Canada, most of the London-Windsor line was signalled about five years ago after a VIA train went through an open switch at 80 mph and crashed into some work equipment on a siding, killing the engineer. The main track between the east side of Windsor and the CP diamond west of Chatham was left unsignalled but I believe that entire stretch is free of any track switches, so it remains 80 mph even though it's dark. 80 mph was the limit when most of it was dark, too; I remember timing the mileposts while riding that line in 1998.

toledopatch Wrote:
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>
> I wouldn't be surprised if there's some dark
> territory on the fringes of NJT and MBTA commuter
> rail, too, though I can't think of specific
> examples.

The only dark territory on NJ Transit is the Princeton branch between Princeton Junction station and Princeton University.