Passenger Trains > California Car Seats

I just traveled on the San Juaquin today on Train 704, for the first time. I do have to say the seats on the California Cars were very disappointing. For being a longer trip (about 6 hours), having a seat that doesn't recline, (the seat pan sliding out an inch, giving less leg room doesn't count) is just unacceptable. However I could see these cars being ok on a Capitol, or a train that has a short run, or high turnover. However most people on the train were going to Fresno or further, and the seats were just not good enough for that long of a trip. However I did see that the cab car, a California II car, (similar to the surfliners) did recline, and were comfortable (Identical to the Surfliner seats). However I have personal reservations about sitting in the cab car. I should hope that when these cars are overhauled that Caltrans will replace the seats, or have different sets with better seats for the San Juaquins, and the other seats for the Capitols. It just baffles me that there are more comfortable seats standard with business class avaliable on a shorter train, the Pacific Surfliner. Does anyone else share my opinion?


BTW: It was very nice to meet members, sfericsf, and SCAX on the cancelled Tehachapi Starlight the other day, had a wonderful time, a lot more foamers than usual on #14 :-)

Edit: Just so everyone knows what were talking about:

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The seats that do not recline are from the original order of California Cars. The newer cars have the more comfortable seats. For some reason it seems like the San Joaquins tend to get mostly the older cars while the newer ones run on the Capitols. Also the "California Superliners" seem to run mostly on the Capitols as well for some reason.

All of the original 8000 series California Cars HAVE been overhauled by Siemens in Sacramento, and what a disaster they are. The seats were not replaced, merely cleaned (poorly). The HVAC was messed-with, so now most of the air-flow in the cars is twice as loud as before, which was a lot louder than the Superliners and 6000 series Surfliner cars.

And the Curtis Door replacements that are the epitome of over-engineering. The old pneumatic doors had their problems, but nothing like these new mechanical doors with seven times as many computer-controlled moving parts as the old doors. One trip down the Valley and the mechanics get so dusty that the doors malfunction, flying open at 80mph, not opening at all ... take your pick. They did the same number on the end doors, as well. Quite a few of them are permanently open now due to being bad-ordered. Rumor is they will all be replaced now with the Surfliner-style operating devices, which is what should have been done to start with.

As for the seats, you are absolutely correct. They suck, and they will probably never be replaced because all the cars are fresh out of being refurbished and it will be at least another 10 years before anything is done again. It's just another fine example of CalTrans thinking it knows what is best. They should have sent the California Cars to Beach Grove and given them real refurbishment jobs.

Leave it to Amtrak to reinvent the wheel.

Yes, those seats are hell on people who have back problems (which is a huge chunk of the population). When I ride from OKJ to BFD, I can't wait to get off the train and get on the bus. At least those seats recline and the cushions are softer.

Smitty, Amtrak had nothing to do with the seats that Caltrans placed in the first order.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> Yes, those seats are hell on people who have back
> problems (which is a huge chunk of the
> population). When I ride from OKJ to BFD, I can't
> wait to get off the train and get on the bus. At
> least those seats recline and the cushions are
> softer.


Yes, that was my feeling as well. It's sad that you want nothing more than to get off the train and onto the more comfortable bus. Between the horrid seats, the school group of 100, and every person over 21 getting loaded in the Cafe', it was a pretty awful trip.

A side note, one person got so drunk that in Merced when he was getting off to smoke, he missed the step from the train to the platform, fell head first and ate concrete. After the paramedic came, and put a bandage on his head, he decided to continue his journey. I had heard that he was asking if beer could be delivered to him since the crew required him to stay in the lower level. The comments I heard from the other passengers is that he should get both his trip and booze free due to Amtrak allowing him to fall. Needless to say, it was an awful experience.

Interesting info, Ed. I didn't know that Amtrak did not have a role in the first delivery of the California corridor equipment. Maybe that's why Gene (Cap Corridor) makes sure his trains have the good seats. :)

>And the Curtis Door replacements that are the epitome of over-engineering. The old pneumatic doors had their problems, but nothing like these new mechanical doors with seven times as many computer-controlled moving parts as the old doors. One trip down the Valley and the mechanics get so dusty that the doors malfunction, flying open at 80mph, not opening at all ... take your pick. They did the same number on the end doors, as well. Quite a few of them are permanently open now due to being bad-ordered. Rumor is they will all be replaced now with the Surfliner-style operating devices, which is what should have been done to start with.

Actually, it's more a case of flimsy hardware and the modular control than the electric door engines. Being based on a design pretty much abandoned by the US transit industry prior to WWII, the air door engines were junk (the side door ones, that is). Compounding this is that the current generation of design engineers specify too close tolerances. They ignore, wilfully and/or unknowingly, past history, so any dirt entering the apparatus makes things grind to a halt almost immediately. The new door engines are electric motors, and they sound just like an all-electric PCC when they open and close.

Modular control works like this: with newer automobiles, the internal wiring is "simplified" by using only two wires which carry commands to computer modules elsewhere in the car. These in turn control the various devices in response to commands sent from the dashboard, brake pedal, etc. So if you change a tail light and put in one which is brighter than called for, when the rear control module goes through its power-up self-test, it will think the higher current drawn by the brighter light is a short circuit and shut itself down, turning everything it controls "off": the rear door locks, the rear windows, the tail lights, the brake lights, the rear turn signals, the license plate light, the trunk lock, etc. cease to function. It's the same sort of thing with this new door control system. During their next rebuild Caltrans is going to junk the computer modules and go back to direct wire control.

It's also a case of the maintenance people actually reading the reports written up by the crews and then figuring out that tab A has to be inserted into slot B, rather than slot B being inserted into tab A. Amtrak may soon lose the Caltrain maintenance contract.

I first rode the early California Cars in the mid 90's when they began service on the San Diegan route as part of the San Diego-Santa Barbara "express" service. In addition to the seats, the other thing I didn't like about these cars were the overhead luggage compartments. The enclosed compartments had door openings so small that you couldn't put anything much larger than a backpack or briefcase in the compartments, not even a standard full-size carry-on bag. Has this changed with the later California Cars or with the refurbished cars?

SDGreg Wrote:
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> I first rode the early California Cars in the mid
> 90's when they began service on the San Diegan
> route as part of the San Diego-Santa Barbara
> "express" service. In addition to the seats, the
> other thing I didn't like about these cars were
> the overhead luggage compartments. The enclosed
> compartments had door openings so small that you
> couldn't put anything much larger than a backpack
> or briefcase in the compartments, not even a
> standard full-size carry-on bag. Has this changed
> with the later California Cars or with the
> refurbished cars?

No, it hasn't. I remember them on the San Diegans as well. I remember something that really annoyed me, that the cars still do. The ADA beeping on the outside of the train, that supposedly allows visually impaired passengers to find the doors. All it seems to do is make a pointless annoying noise that has no purpose.


I don't remember the seats sucking so much tho. And yes half the doors weren't working.

ats90mph Wrote:
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>
> A side note, one person got so drunk that in
> Merced when he was getting off to smoke, he missed
> the step from the train to the platform, fell head
> first and ate concrete.
>
> The comments I heard from the other passengers is that
> he should get both his trip and booze free due to
> Amtrak allowing him to fall.


Although I do not like the old California Car seats, what irritates me more, are the passengers that I've met on the San Joaquin line. I have met more ignorant finger-pointers on that line, than I have met on any other line. These people are always blaming others for their own stupidity, rather than owning up and taking responsibility for themselves.

A question for those of you who used to work passenger service for Southern Pacific, Santa Fe, and the other railroads: Would Southern Pacific, or any of the other private railroad companies have tolerated a drunken idiot like this one (who is practically intoxicated) on board any of their trains? It would seem that if this were my grandfather's generation, somebody like that would be escorted off the train by the Conductor, without a refund. Back then, if you did something stupid and you got hurt, it was your own fault, and not many people would show sympathy. Now, these people are rewarded in court. So, how did the private railroads handle something like this, back then?

Maybe it would be better if the San Joaquin service was entirely discontinued.

Possibly better than subjecting people to those seats.

Or, maybe people in Ohio would jump at the chance of riding in seats like that on the 3-C corridor.

The old 8000 series seats DO recline. You slide the cushion on the bottom forward, and it'll recline ever-so-slightly.

I still prefer the 6000 series for coaches, but the 8000s for the cafe.

SMW

Uh, I ride the San Joaquins from Jack London to Bakersfield (and bus to LA) about a half dozen times a year. While I generally head for a California II car if available, the California I seats are OK. And the passengers are OK. And the crews are OK. And the food is fine, considering it's just a cafe. And the train's usually on time or early.

The only problem is, the trains can get pretty crowded at times. I guess all those passengers are just too dumb to realize what a cruddy experience they're having. Me included.

RL Cabin

kodachrome9319 Wrote:
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> The old 8000 series seats DO recline. You slide
> the cushion on the bottom forward, and it'll
> recline ever-so-slightly.
>
> I still prefer the 6000 series for coaches, but
> the 8000s for the cafe.
>
> SMW

Yes Steven I suppose they do, however to me it gives less leg room, and in my opinion makes the situation worse.

ats90mph Wrote:
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> Yes Steven I suppose they do, however to me it
> gives less leg room, and in my opinion makes the
> situation worse.


Yeah, and I need all the legroom I can get too.

SMW