Passenger Trains > Another all-nighter for Pennsylvanian pasengers

#29 got to Pittsburgh 4 hours late on Saturday night.

If this was a CSX problem, this train needs to become a Thruway bus, and the Pennsylvanian extended to Chicago. This is as ridiculous as trying to run between Bakersfield and LA.

If this was an engine problem, CSX should demand 3 units until the traction motors are changed out.

In either case, Amtrak has a lot to answer for.

Another reason to have the Pennsylvanian depart NYP
at least two hours later than it does now.
If this sort of activity continues what few passengers
there are willing to use both trains will
diminish.

If the Pennsylvanian departs NYC any later, I think you will lose the intermediate traffic (i.e. from Philly to Pittsbrgh), as I heard a LOT of grumblings when this train moved from its 7:30 a.m. departure slot out of NYP westbound to Pittsburgh. It's present schedule was made more to accommodate (1) connecting passengers from New England and (2) lessen the "layover" time for passengers connecting from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited. If all goes on time, you have about a 4 hour layover in Pittsburgh, which could entail a nice dinner near the train station before continuing your journey west on the Capitol Limited.

Pennsylvania really needs an extra frequency west of Harrisburg, rather than the single Pennsylvanian frequency. Through cars would also help to alleviate the transfer. Look at Sunday travellers heading eastbound - they have to wait until 1:30 p.m. to connect from the Capitol Limited to the Pennsylvanian. But the Sunday eastbound Pennsylvanian schedule is ideal for those who try to get in as much time for the weekend in areas between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.

I think the support should be for another frequency between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, not another schedule change on the eastbound trip. Have the State of PA subsidize the Pennsylvanian and then Amtrak add another frequency from Harrisburg to Chicago via Pittsburgh with connecting/through coaches at Pittsburgh for the Capitol Limited. I'v advocated for a Superliner train (i.e. 2 coaches, Sightseer Lounge, one sleeper) to operate between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh so it can hook right behind the Capitol Limited. This would be similiar to the Empire Builder's operation. But with the City of New Orleans not having Sightseer Lounge cars anymore a Sightseer Lounge car could operate well between Pittsburgh and Harrisburgh - serving light snacks/meals and having a descent lounge area as well.

I also think Amtrak's doing its best to eliminate the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian transfer at Pittsburgh. On my last three recent trips to Pittsburgh, the transfer traffic was nominal compared to what it used to be.

It's going to get even more nominal since all eastern connections have been removed from the Capitol Ltd schedule grid.

The Pennsylvanian schedule grid is available, but not printed in the national schedule. Bot the Capitol Ltd and Pennsylvanian should be on the same grid.

This is another case of Amtrak dumbing down operations to conform with its laziness and stupidity.

Interesting that Pennsylvanian/Capitol
Limited schedules are awkward to
relate to with new timetables. Is
this an effort to kill one of the
trains ?
I am wondering about 448/448 as
well. Yesterday and today I used
Amtrak's home page to see the schedule
for 448/48-49/449. 449 is scheduled to
leave Boston at noon. But for May 15
the computer shows taking the 9:45 pm
train from Boston south and then
making a connection the next day.
Also for the 16th. Is 449 being
deliberately eliminated from the screen
to discourage business ? Will similar
odd examples show up for the Pennsylvania
and Capitol ? Is this a last attempt
by the less than enthusiastic Amtrak
management to discourage service before
a new administration comes in ?
Just speculating .....

448/449 have been annulled for some selected dates through the summer to accomodate CSX trackwork on the B&A route, which might explain why you found that.

Amtrakbulletin PSN 408-250 claims 449 will
operate today. However, a bus operated
Boston-Albany

May 16th is a Friday when 449 is supposed to
operate(train does not operate SUnday-Wednesday)
yet the computer shows one takes a 9:45pm
train to Washington to go to Chicago.

Has Amtrak been "absent minded" and forgotten
to enter the proper information ? Or is it just
lazy and decided "who cares" and will never
enter the 12:00 noon departure ? Or will it be
corrected sometime this week ?

It seems "interesting" that proper information
for the Pensylvanian and Lakeshore are not
properly displayed on the computer or in public
timetables. Will a Lincoln service or the Heartland
Flyer or some other train suddenly be subject
to such an oversight ?

I find it hard to believe current Amtrak management
is committed to encouraging passenger service
despite the fact that they get their paychecks from
Amtrak. I pity those poor individuals working
diligently for Amtrak who are trying to do the best
with meager service while top level management
seems uninterested.

I don't think Amtrak is conspiring to kill both trains.

As I noted in a thread several days ago, the Amtrak website shows the connection between the Capitol and the Pennsylvania for riders book trips from Pennsylvania points to the locations west of Pittsburgh. I also said that most passengers are probably using the Internet, not Amtrak's timetable to plan trips. One respondent replied that he uses the paper timetable (as do I), but neither he nor anyone else refuted my theory.

The reality is when both of these trains were introduced in 1980 and 1981, they operated independently of each other and did so until 2003. As a Pittsburgh resident, I wish Amtrak would schedule the Pennsylvanian without regard to the Capitol. The current Monday - Saturday departure time from Pittsburgh at 7:20 a.m. is too early; it should be moved back to 9:00 or 10:00 a.m. The scheduled arrival time into Pittsburgh at 8:00 p.m. is too late, especially considering there is no dining car on the train. In the winter, the later times deprive riders of a good view of the Horse Shoe Curve, one of the highlights of this journey.

To those who complain about having to wait a long time in Pittsburgh between westbound trains, I say get out and check out the City. If you're a young & single guy, ride an East Busway EBA bus to Negley Station in Shadyside, walk up to Walnut or over to Ellsworth Avenue and have dinner, drinks and flirt with the beautiful ladies [or go into the Strip District which is located east of and much closer to the Amtrak station]. For others, take cab over to Station Square, enjoy the beauty of the P & LE Terminal and ride the Mon Incline up Mt. Washington. Or go to the cultural district and catch a foreign film or visit an art gallery. If the timing works right (you'd miss an inning or two), go to PNC Park and watch a baseball game.

Dave

When they "combined" the Three Rivers with the Pennsylvanian, what resulted is a compromise schedule westbound (the original Pennsylvanian is now a Keystone), and the Pennsylvanian eastbound. That theoretically cherry-picked the better patronized train in either direction.

The old westbound Pennsylvanian ran too early: both departing NYP before 7am, and Harrisburg for western PA before a good chunk of the business day was done. I believe 7:20am out of PGH was the more popular departure than #40 at 10am. When 40/41 was running, the Pennsylvanian was a little thin west of Harrisburg. With the scaling back of both Greyhound and USAir operations, and sky-rocketing air fares and gasoline, that problem would have straightened itself out.

It was an dumb, knee-jerk, internal decision by Gunn's advisors that saved little money. If they wanted to nail a train, it could have been an Empire train west of Albany, like the one that ran within an hour of the Lake Shore. In 2005, the western NY Empire trains were pretty thin.

joemvcnj Wrote:
>
> The old westbound Pennsylvanian ran too early:
> both departing NYP before 7am, and Harrisburg for
> western PA before a good chunk of the business day
> was done. I believe 7:20am out of PGH was the more
> popular departure than #40 at 10am.

How did you determine that 7:20 am is more popular than 10 a.m?

Unfortunately, I did not save my source of information, but I recall reading that the Pennsylvanian was one of Amtrak's most successful trains. It grew from 2 cars when it started in April 1980 to five cars by the 1990s and its subsidy requirement was among the lowest in Amtrak's system.

Dave

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To those who complain about having to wait a long
> time in Pittsburgh between westbound trains, I say
> get out and check out the City. If you're a young
> & single guy, ride an East Busway EBA bus to
> Negley Station in Shadyside, walk up to Walnut or
> over to Ellsworth Avenue and have dinner, drinks
> and flirt with the beautiful ladies .

This has been duly noted for the next time I'm in Pittsburgh.....either by train or by car :)

I noticed that on May 7, #30 was late into PGH by 3 hours, arriving at 0835. #42 left on time at 0720 meaning that they didn't hold it for the Capitol. I've noticed in the past that they would hold #42 up to about 0900. The question is whether or not this is a new policy not to hold #42 or if there simply were not enough transfers to justify it.

BTW, what happens to the transfers in this situation? Bustitution or do they have the option of continuing into DC then take a regional?

For the eastbound connection, according to what Rich Esposito, Keystone project manager, told us at a NARP Region 3 meeting in Harrisburg over a year ago, #30 has to leave Cleveland by a certain cut-off time (don't remember what it is) or they start calling buses. Passengers have the option of hotelling for the next day's Pennsylvanian, but seldom opt for that. They can stay on #30 to DC, or take the bus which drops them onto a Keystone corridor train. This was during NS's Indiana meltdown last year. He also said they desperately need a 2nd frequency and some thru service west of PGH. When someone commented that taking 40/41 off was a mistake, he said I am not going to stand here and disagree with you.

The decison to take 40/41 was not his, it was Ralph von dem Hagen's, who had a long term grudge to get that train, and Gunn's knee-jerk reaction to shut all input and comments off except from his cronies. Giving Penn-DOT 1 day notice before their budget is inked to come up with $3.5mil to keep the 2nd frequency is not how you build state partnerships. I was not sorry to see Gunn go after that fiasco, but I do not think the current Amtrak management is any better. Given how they just decided not to display eastern connections for the Capitol Ltd tells me they are also setting it up to kill some patronage and stick on a diner/lounge. I also think some at Amtrak read this forum, have read some our proposals to reinstate thru-service onto the Middle Division, want to make sure it can't come back, and keep that PGH transfer as ugly as possible.

I talked to von dem Hagen himself at this year's Regions 3 meeting. He thinks the transfer business is a trickle, that everyone between Newark and Paoli heads to DC to catch the Capitol, and a switch crew at PGH could never generate the incremental business pay its costs. I think he's full of it. Though he does think transferring passengers should be allowed to stay on board the Pennsylvanian during the layup, but they won't, and that gets back to the last phrase in the prior paragraph.

Nothing is stopping Amtrak NOW from presenting a plan to PA for establishing that second frequency west of Harrisburg (to Pittsburgh). Vice versa for the State of PA. When Amtrak went asking PA to subsidize the Three Rivers (at the time it was being considered for discontinuance) to sustain the double round trip frequency between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, it truly was the "wrong time" politically and for the budget of PA. But there's nothing stopping the wheels of motion to try again - with a little more advanced planning, rather than the "shotgun" approach that was sort of taken when Amtrak went asking PA to subsidize the Three Rivers frequency across PA.

A morning train and a mid-afternoon train leaving both end points of New York City and Pittsburgh east and westbound would be ideal for this route. But the only way I am afraid Amtrak is going to be able to accommodate "through cars" at Pittsburgh to Chicago is via Superliners which would be limited in operating from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. But with the increased frequency of the Keystone Corridor trains between Harrisburg-Philly-NYP, a cross the transfer change of train may be more passenger friendly than the early morning or late evening shuffle at Pittsburgh. Some how I think Amtrak could find at least two coaches, Sightseer Lounge (operating as the food service car) and sleeper (even if a Trans/Dorm Superliner between Harrisburg and Chicago - tacked on to the rear of the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh). Such a consist would likely require six Superliner coaches, three Sightseer Lounge cars, and 3 sleepers - for a consist of 2 coaches, 1 Sightseer and 1 Trans Dorm/Sleeper per train from Harrisburg to Chicago. One coach each may even be allocated from the Capitol Limited, thus requiring Amtrak to find 3 additional Superliner coaches. Two consists may only be required if Amtrak could run the trains on time (i.e. Capitol Limited and Superliner across PA to/from Harrisburg). The City of New Orleans gave up its 3 Sightseer Lounge cars. The sleepers may require additional maneuvering - or use a Trans Dorm/Sleeper, selling all space as revenue capacity except for a few crew member needed to operate this section of the train. I just can't see Amtrak taking the trouble to combine a single set train set with the Superliner Capitol Limited.

Course the ideal would be to re-establish the Three Rivers. Could it be combined/separated from the Lake Shore at Cleveland if not a separate train? Amtrak always claims it is short on Viewliners though. That's why I suggest the Superliner option. The Lake Shore's eastbound schedule is ridiculous with the absence of the Three Rivers - or three regular operated trains from the Midwest to the East.

48/49 have lost a lot of Ohio/Indiana business, and well as to New England with that ridiculous eastbound schedule.

Sticking 2 Amfleet-2's on the rear of the Cap is easy, and has precedent. It was done for less than a year in the late 1990's. It would also only require 2 more cars be pulled from dead storage. If you insist on Superliners, that requires more equipment, and they couldn't turn back the same day in Harrisburg. It is certainly worth considering, but not my personal favorite.

If they could scrape up another Cardinal trainset, which would require another Viewliner, they could run 40/41 4 days a week on non-Cardinal days. Both the Cardinal and Three Rivers together would require only 3 train sets.

They shouldn't of gotten rid of 40 and 41 in the 1ST Place!