Passenger Trains > New funds for MagLev Los Angeles-Las Vegas

Source: Associated Press
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WASHINGTON (AP) - Plans for a levitating train from Las Vegas to Disneyland can move forward under a transportation bill signed by President Bush on Friday that frees up $45 million for the futuristic project.
Derided by critics as pie in the sky, the train would use magnetic levitation technology to carry passengers from Disneyland to Las Vegas in well under two hours, traveling at speeds of up to 300 mph. It would be the first MagLev system in the U.S.

The money is the largest cash infusion in the project's nearly 20-year history. It will pay for environmental studies for the first leg of the project.

The money had been delayed by a drafting error in Congress' 2005 highway bill, which was corrected along with some other changes by the legislation signed Friday by Bush. The delay had allowed a competing and cheaper diesel-electric plan to emerge as an alternative, but with the money now freed up supporters hope to move forward with the MagLev plan.

The train is meant to ease traffic on increasingly clogged Interstate 15, the main route for the millions of Southern Californians who make the 250-plus-mile drive to Las Vegas each year. There is no train on the route—Amtrak's Desert Wind between Los Angeles and Las Vegas was canceled in 1997 because of low ridership.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., praised passage of the law, saying the MagLev project "will safely and efficiently move people between Southern California and Las Vegas."
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I haven't followed this topic very closely. Is this still "pie in the sky" stuff, or are they serious about making this happen sometime in the next, say, 10 years?

Why can't we just have a chartered Amtrak train by Key Holidays (www.keyholidays.com) running from Los Angeles to Las Vegas on weekends during the summer?

Just like Key Holidays runs "fun" and "snow" trains from Oakland to Reno, it is pathetic we don't have a "weekend Las Vegas" party train. Now that Cajon is getting three tracks, can this become more a reality now?

At least this can serve as something until we get this MagLev going. Probably going to be longer than 10 years, though.

Maglev is a mystery, by intent. The amount of energy used to operate them and their operating costs are hidden by Seimens and the Japanese.

They could be quite attractive because of their very low impact on the guideway. High speed train tracks do require a lot of maintenance which is usually done at night and thus prevents overnight use of the system for high value freight such as mail. As I understand it Maglev trains simply do not wear against anything.

Maglev at speed does consume a large amount of energy due to aerodynamic friction. I have attended an analysis of energy use by various modes given by a Physicist. As speed increases the friction goes up as the square of the speed. At or near sea level this makes 300 kilometers per hour (186 MPH) a reasonable limit for trains. I don't see how a 300 MPH Maglev can be efficient, blasting though dense air. And that will mean a lot of aerodynamic noise. In comparing energy per seat mile, a Boeing 737 starts to get efficient on trips of over 400 miles or so, their aerodynamic friction drops because they operate at altitudes with low air density.

Maglev is a simple idea, a separate project, not complicated by existing facilities like a rail system. In Europe High Speed Rail is closely integrated to classic rail lines. This makes for very complicated propulsion and signal systems (because they operate over many legacy lines of varying catenary voltage and signal systems). The "upside" is that this makes the range of the High Speed trains far larger than just the dedicated High Speed tracks. Basically, a TGV in France can go anywhere there is an overhead line; going as fast as the old lines permit, then up to 300 KPH when it reaches the junction with the core High Speed network. Over the years they have built four High Speed corridors but have the whole country covered with High Speed services, networked at most cities with regional and local services. A Maglev system would be confined to only the new guideways.

In my opinion the Bush administration often "bites" on far future technology, probably as a way to step over and avoid spending money on near term, practical, proven technology. In the public transportation area they are going for Maglev while starving Amtrak and many other transit projects. In automotive emissions they speculate on hydrogen fuel while sanctioning the continued exception from fuel efficiency for SUVs. In the military it is all about robot airplanes and Mach 3 fighters while forgetting to take care of the troops in the VA hospitals.

What is the steepest practical grade for maglev? Even though there is no friction, I would assume there is an added energy cost to both propel the train forward and upward at the same time. And downhill, how does a maglev control its speed?

Pretty ambitious for a country with passenger rail that is generally 3rd world. It's too bad that those with serious and workable high speed rail technology have no political "pull" with those in power in Washington.

I'm reminded of the slogan that contains ........ "and pigs will fly!"

railstiesballast Wrote:
...
In the
> military it is all about robot airplanes and Mach
> 3 fighters while forgetting to take care of the
> troops in the VA hospitals.

For the sake of accuracy, the Department of Veterans Affairs is not part of the military. Your reference is probably to the well-publicized problems at Walter Reed which is an Army hospital and has no connection with the VA.

Is there any real reason for a 300 mph train in the first place? A 150 mph Acela-type train could make the trip in 2 1/2-3 hours, way faster than driving and competitive with an airline when airport time is considered. Of course, we are talking about Las Vegas where profligate waste is a way of life on the Strip.

rms492 Wrote:
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> Why can't we just have a chartered Amtrak train by
> Key Holidays (www.keyholidays.com) running from
> Los Angeles to Las Vegas on weekends during the
> summer?
>
> Just like Key Holidays runs "fun" and "snow"
> trains from Oakland to Reno, it is pathetic we
> don't have a "weekend Las Vegas" party train. Now
> that Cajon is getting three tracks, can this
> become more a reality now?
>
> At least this can serve as something until we get
> this MagLev going. Probably going to be longer
> than 10 years, though.

There was a LA to Las Vegas Key Holidays train a few years ago and from what I remember some of the runs were canceled for lack of riders.

Anyone?

Sal Garcia
Pico Rivera, Ca.

45 Million what a joke. When they say 45 Billion I might start to think I may see something.

Great..a crap shooter special. How about a train between LAX-SFO?
Oh, I forgot...No money at the end of the rainbow. May be slot machines can be placed on the trains between LAX-SFO.

Take the 45 million and put it to making improvements to the existing line across the desert and run a conventional train to Vegas.

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

Sal, yes I do remember that one, as I booked it only for them to tell me it was canceled.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> I haven't followed this topic very closely. Is
> this still "pie in the sky" stuff, or are they
> serious about making this happen sometime in the
> next, say, 10 years?


"Crap in the sky stuff" is more accurate.

A maglev operates as a continuous synchronous motor. Speeds are controlled by the frequency of the alternating current to the coils (all 300 miles of them, in the case of a LA=LV guideway. In addition to the horsepower required to propel the vehicles, there is considerable horsepower required to levitate the vehicles. Remember your high-school physics?

A wheel-on-rail system can accommodate minor misalignments much better than a maglev can-- the gap is critical, and debris on the guideway can cause serious problems. Debris clearing was what was happening on the German maglev when they had their fatal crash a while back.

As far as impact goes, again, remember your high-school physics! You've got this vehicle hurtling along at god-only-knows what mph, supported by the magnets, and I'll assure you that the stress on the guideway is no different than if it were supported on steel wheels. Even though the car doesn't touch the guideway, the track will still see a pounding as the car passes. Only because the car should be lighter (that is until the FRA steps in to 'help' design the cars) will pounding be reduced. The 'test' maglev systems currently require an unacceptable amount of maintenance for the traffic carried.

calzephyr48 Wrote:
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> Remember your
> high-school physics?

Physics in high school? I wasn't one of THOSE nerds! I was still struggling with Geometry. LOL!

Thanks for the information on Maglev. From the responses so far, it sounds like an enormous waste of money for another "study". Which begs the question.....How *do* I get into the "study" business anyway???

UP has already approved of Amtrak running from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. The desert tortoise issue has been solved. The only remaining issue is equipment, which Amtrak says they don't have. Why are they dumping money into this thing?

I'd love to see this actually get built, I doubt it'll be in our lifetime the way you got all the barriers to overcome! I'd say bring back 35 and 36!

I believe the "California Screamin'" roller coaster at Disneyland (California Adventure) is a MagLev propelled coaster. Thing seems to "break down" daily.

Exactly.

Also, while I love future tech, I'm a little concerned that all the maglev vehicles I've seen thus far are low-to-medium capacity. Regardless of how low Amtrak was able to "force" the Desert Wind's ridership through lack of marketing, poor timekeeping, and ill-kept equipment, with $4+/gal for gas and the short-hop airlines mired in TSA red tape, there is a market for HIGH CAPACITY service between LA and Vegas.

So, what sort of trip-capacity could we get for $45 million with a single maglev vs. a single conventional rail train-set?




webmaster Wrote:
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> Take the 45 million and put it to making
> improvements to the existing line across the
> desert and run a conventional train to Vegas.

Harry Reid likes the idea, and as senate majority leader, he has a large bucket of taxpayer money for his friends.

Whether this thing ever sees the light of day is doubtful, but we'll surely see $45mn of studies, project reports, analyses, trips, etc by consultants and lobbyists.

MagLev is interesting technology, but it appears to be very energy intensive. That's not a positive in today's cost environment.

smitty195 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calzephyr48 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Remember your
> > high-school physics?
>
> Physics in high school? I wasn't one of THOSE
> nerds! I was still struggling with Geometry. LOL!
>
> Thanks for the information on Maglev. From the
> responses so far, it sounds like an enormous waste
> of money for another "study". Which begs the
> question.....How *do* I get into the "study"
> business anyway???
>
First, you take (and pass with good grades) hard courses like physics and other sciences. Then you build a reputation for having good analytical skills and being able to organize and write up the results. Then you put together an effective team of thinkers and doers and start responding to requests for proposals. After you invest a lot of time in putting together the best proposal for the price, maybe you win the bid. All those who don't win the bid go back and try again for another one.