Passenger Trains > NTSB Metrolink hearing

I missed the first half of the introduction where they went through everything, step-by-step, of the factual evidence that led up to the crash. They showed the location of both trains at specific times, the signals, and what the text messages said both sent and received. At one point, the presenter said that the Union Pacific conductor was texting---did he mis-speak and meant to say Metrolink, or did they present evidence of the UP crew texting as well? I wish I would have caught the very beginning of that presentation.

Of note so far:

-The UP train was going 42 MPH at impact
-The Metrolink train was goign 41 MPH at impact
-There was never any brake application in the Metrolink train
-The trains could see each other for 5 seconds prior to impact
-The UP train went into emergency before impact
-The Metrolink engineer (Sanchez) was texting a teenaged railfan about not only getting a cab ride, but also about allowing the teenager to OPERATE THE TRAIN
-A Conductor tested positive for marijuana (I'm not clear if they are saying this was the UP Conductor or the Metrolink Conductor)

Edit: It was just clarified that it was the UP Conductor that tested positive for marijuana

Okay, they just took a lunch break. The facts about some of the crew members are shocking. Good God.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> -There was never any brake application in the
> Metrolink train

Not exactly true. I suspect they mean that there was no apparent brake application in reaction to the approaching UP train, when it became visible.

According to the event recorder data, the engineer made a minimum reduction to reduce train speed, and released it about 25 or 30 seconds before the collision.

The data suggests that he was alive and active, and not incapacitated, at the time he should have been responding to the stop signal. It also says that he was not operating at full throttle bent on suicide, as some have suggested in the past.

Either he didn't recognize the signal as a stop, for whatever reason, or the signal was displaying something else. Given all the signal event data recorded, and the post-accident testing, the odds are heavily in favor of the first alternative.

run8 Wrote:
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> Not exactly true. I suspect they mean that there
> was no apparent brake application in reaction to
> the approaching UP train, when it became visible.

Yes, they were referring to no braking application just before impact---when the trains could see each other for those 5 seconds. I didn't write it down, but they did say what position the throttle was in prior to the crash (after the Chatsworth stop, but before the impact). I think it was something like throttle to 7, then 3, then 4, then 5....or something along those lines. If there will be a transcript available of the factual review that they did this morning, then it will be in there.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> If there will be a transcript available of the factual review
> that they did this morning, then it will be in there.

All the basic data, like track profile, and event recorder data from the signaling system and locomotives is available on the NTSB web site for download:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Railroad/DCA08MR009/default.htm

smitty195 Wrote:
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> -A Conductor tested positive for marijuana (I'm not clear if they are saying this was the UP
> Conductor or the Metrolink Conductor)
>
> Edit: It was just clarified that it was the UP Conductor that tested positive for marijuana

The other drug testing positives showed the Metrolink engineer had evidence of high blood pressure medication, and medication for controlling diabetes.

The Metrolink conductor tested positive for Prozac and morphine. (prescription drugs to treat depression or obsessive-compulsive disorder and to treat pain)

run8 Wrote:
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> The Metrolink conductor tested positive for Prozac
> and morphine. (prescription drugs to treat
> depression or obsessive-compulsive disorder and to
> treat pain)

I hadn't heard that yet. Gosh, it just gets worse and worse. No offense intended, and not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but I will be sure to avoid Metrolink next time I'm in the LA area. I won't step foot onto one of their trains until they figure out a better way to monitor their crews.

I am sure if you had access to people's medical records before getting on a train, plane or even a bus, you probably wouldn't use the transit! It would be hard to find anyone these days not being treated for high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, or depression all of which are practically epidemic in this country!

I'm not too concerned with the diabetes and blood pressure meds. I'm concerned with Morphine, Marijuana, and texting.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> I'm not too concerned with the diabetes and blood
> pressure meds. I'm concerned with Morphine,
> Marijuana, and texting.

I don't think it's fair to jump to conclusions about the Morphine because it only appears in the urine test, taken 2 hours after the blood test. Wouldn't it seem possible that the hospital gave him morphine? I think so.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Railroad/DCA08MR009/411158.pdf

David.Curlee Wrote:
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> I don't think it's fair to jump to conclusions
> about the Morphine because it only appears in the
> urine test, taken 2 hours after the blood test.
> Wouldn't it seem possible that the hospital gave
> him morphine? I think so.

Well, as I said, that was the first I had heard anything about Morphine. If the hospital gave him Morphine, and then a blood test revealed Morphine, then that's a no-brainer.

Yeah that's no big deal, depending on the medications you see little to know reaction from them, the diabetes and hypertension issues that is.

If your bp and sugar isn't under control, the carriers will force you from working.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> I'm not too concerned with the diabetes and blood
> pressure meds. I'm concerned with Morphine,
> Marijuana, and texting.

Here's an AP story:

http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page__article&_article=1609322&_count=1

halfmoonharold Wrote:
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> Here's an AP story

Thanks for that link. And it does look like the UP Conductor was also texting:

"Investigators also found that the conductor of the Union Pacific train received and sent numerous text messages while on duty. "

All the concern about who was on which medication or drug are certainly valid. Even some prescription medications result in an individual's inability to perform their duty while a member of a train crew.

The central issue is the lack of situational awarness exhibited by the Metrolink engineer. The conductor of the UP local is no less culpable doing the same but it was Sanchez's actions that were the sole cause of that particular incident.

Alas, the NTSB. They like their air time and headlines. They are not telling us anything that is not already known to the Feds or the State. The FRA issued EO26 that addresses the personal electronics issue.

A shame all around but the NTSB will not produce one thing out of these hearings beside newsprint and airtime. I think the issue at hand has been adequately addressed and the issue of drug use, illicit or prescription was addressed years ago. Positive Train Control.....what the NTSB can answer is who pays. Maybe the Stimulus Package can pay for that?


DT

Not sure if anyone is still watching the NTSB hearing, but the UP guy just said something interesting. The event recorders in UP locomotives can be downloaded wirelessly while the train is on-the-move. There are 36 base stations throughout the UP system, and if a locomotive is within one mile of those 36 base stations, the event recorder data can be downloaded and then put on UP's internal server for review by managers. The other method is via 802.11 (WiFi) technology.

Is it physically possible to sneak a cab rider on a Metrolink train without the conductor seeing anything or is it one of those "wink-wink" deals?

smitty195 Wrote:
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> run8 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The Metrolink conductor tested positive for
> Prozac
> > and morphine. (prescription drugs to treat
> > depression or obsessive-compulsive disorder and
> to
> > treat pain)
>
> I hadn't heard that yet. Gosh, it just gets worse
> and worse. No offense intended, and not trying to
> hurt anyone's feelings, but I will be sure to
> avoid Metrolink next time I'm in the LA area. I
> won't step foot onto one of their trains until
> they figure out a better way to monitor their
> crews.

A few months ago I said that I agreed 95% with your condemnation of the engineer. I knocked off 5% because I thought you came down too hard on the guy. I'm giving you that 5% back.

I can only "hope" that it was the combination of prescription medications and personel stress that caused him to use such incredibly poor judgement. Otherwise it would be truly scary indeed.

krapplem Wrote:
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> Is it physically possible to sneak a cab rider on
> a Metrolink train without the conductor seeing
> anything or is it one of those "wink-wink" deals?

Yup! The rider simply boards the locomotive on the side of the train away from the station platform. The engineer lets the conductor know he's going for a whiz, or some such... No brainer...

TomPlatten Wrote:
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> I am sure if you had access to people's medical
> records before getting on a train, plane or even a
> bus, you probably wouldn't use the transit! It
> would be hard to find anyone these days not being
> treated for high blood pressure, diabetes, heart
> disease, or depression all of which are
> practically epidemic in this country!


Just think what people out there driving their cars are on. We've all seen drivers that due to physical reasons shouldn't be behind the wheel. Scary thought.