Passenger Trains > LA MTA awards AnsaldoBreda $300MM contract

Los Angeles taxpayers get hosed again.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_13424526?source=rss

trainjunkie Wrote:
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Los Angeles taxpayers get hosed again.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_13424526?source=rss
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On exactly what basis do you make this type of statement?

Some facts:
a. No contract has been signed. The Board action only authorizes
the CEO to enter a contract if and only if AnsaldoBreda meets all
the terms and conditions and financial guarantees. If they do,
then the taxpayers get 100 new cars at $290,000,000.

If this contract was to go out to bid for 100 cars on a competitive
basis, you'll find a bid last year from Siemens to UTA for $3.6 per
car. So, if A-B performs, the taxpayers would save nearly $70 million. (corrected)

OK, so please explain how the taxpayers get hosed by Metro saving $61 million
by not rebidding the cars and moving to accept the option? I want an explanation.

b. Further, as part of the contact deal (and A-B has to sign this), A-B is going
to fix or rebuild the overweight cars that Metro currently has in revenue
service and make them compatible, as originally contracted. So, the taxpayers
will get rebuilt cars that meet specifications at no cost to the taxpayers.
Again, how are the taxpayers getting hosed?

c. A-B has promised to bring a manufacturing facility to Los Angeles. While not
part of the contract, A-B not doing this would cause big problems with Labor
and elected Officials, as this brings jobs to Los Angeles at living wages or
above. So, there is a positive benefit to the City economy.

d. A-B will set up a $300 million bond, with an initial line of $75 million,
which Metro can draw upon if A-B defaults in any manner. The contract is
extremely specific about performance. If A-B doesn't perform, Metro could in
theory get a car order for free.

Again, how are the taxpayers getting hosed? I'd really like some answers.

Bartreed: I agree with you. Whose getting hosed? This sounds like a pretty big rail car plant is going to be built in L.A. which will employ thousands of people. There are many cities around the country that have given businesses huge tax brakes to locate plants in their cities. It seems LA didn't have to come up with a dime. All they had to do is order 100 rail cars that are badly needed anyway. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Also, the way I look at it, when these car builders (even if foreign) are willing to build new plants here, like this one in LA, or the proposed Talgo plant in Wisconsin, this means that America is getting back into the passenger rail business. If this is called getting hosed--all I can say is bring it on, I love it!

Bart,

As you are the Executive Director of The Transit Coalition, I can assure you that we will never see eye to eye on anything related to mass transit in Los Angeles. My opinion as an individual and a taxpayer, is that the taxpayers of L.A. are going to get hosed by this AnsaldoBreda deal. But it's just that, my opinion. I'm sure we both come from completely different fundamental positions that will prevent us from ever agreeing on anything because, fundamentally, I think mass transit here is completely dysfunctional, way too expensive for the return to TAXPAYING CITIZENS, and, basically, a complete waste of money. Needless to say, I voted NO on Measure R.

But just for giggles, to give you something to shoot full of holes, and to entertain the fine readers of Trainorders, I offer this.

Step back and look at the big picture here. Look at AnsaldoBreda's track record, here and elsewhere (Denmark, Washington DC, Atlanta, Boston, etc.). They are completely unreliable and they should have no credibility whatsoever. They shouldn't even be on the radar, let alone be awarded a contract. I don't care how many performance clauses the contract has, all that means is that WHEN (not IF) AnsaldoBreda breaches, assuming there is some actual oversight from the Mayor's office and the MTA to hold A-B accountable, this will get tied up in court for years and just cost the taxpayers even more money in the long run.

But by then Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa will have his precious downtown "green" manufacturing plant, built by his billionaire buddy (and campaign contributor) Stephen Bing and his Shangri-La Construction company and Mayor V will have his 240,000 square foot legacy. By the way, is it a coincidence that Villaraigosa's chief deputy mayor, Jay Carson, was until recently, an employee of Shangri-La Construction?

Of course the manufacturing plant isn't in the contract. That would be against Federal regulations. But if you think it has nothing to do with this contract going to A-B, then all I can say is that you've been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid being poured by Villaraigosa's press office and A-B's Chris Lehane. If everything is so much on the up and up, why would A-B even feel compelled to hire political spinmeister Lehane, a former aide to President Bill Clinton as their media representative (at least he was as of April of this year, not sure of his current status)?

Furthermore, until now A-B has maintained that the defects in the designs of the 17 LR cars they have delivered are due to change orders from the MTA. All of a sudden, now that they get to build their precious manufacturing plant here and snag an order for another 100 cars, they are suddenly willing to "fix" the problems gratis? If the problems really came from the MTA, they would be sticking to their guns on this.

Something stinks here but it gets worse.

What about A-B's exaggerated and unverified claims that it will create 500 new unionized manufacturing jobs in Los Angeles? This is nothing more than Villaraigosa pandering to the AFL-CIO. Anyone recall that back in 2003 the city of L.A. offered A-B a chance to open a plant here and, instead, they built it in Pittsburg, CA?

In Pittsburg, A-B was tossing around a lot of big ideas and big talk, none of which ever happened. A-B claimed they would create at least 200 jobs there. Never happened, but here we go again. BTW, A-B tried this tack in Miami and Madrid Spain as well. Miami said "no thanks". I don't know what happened in Spain.

All this aside, there is no way in hell that an order for 100 rail cars can sustain a brand new 240,000 square foot manufacturing plant full of union labor in downtown Los Angeles (or anywhere in California). They will need orders for hundreds and hundreds of new rail cars just to keep the lights on. Where are those orders going to come from? Not many municipalities or transit agencies left who want anything to do with A-B.

It just doesn't add up. Why do we even give this company the time of day?

You see, my friend, this whole things stinks of nothing but dirty politics and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people like me are sick and tired of it. And when things like this stink this bad, taxpayers get hosed in the end. You have your opinion and I have mine but neither of us will know who is right until this all plays out. But when it does, some day off in the future, maybe after you and I have checked out from this planet, don't say I didn't tell you so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/09 18:22 by trainjunkie.

And the beat goes on!

Oh well, it won't matter at all after 12-21-12

May God bless us all!

KR

bartreed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trainjunkie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Los Angeles taxpayers get hosed again.
>
> http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_13424526?source=r
> ss
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> On exactly what basis do you make this type of
> statement?
>
> Some facts:
> a. No contract has been signed. The Board action
> only authorizes
> the CEO to enter a contract if and only if
> AnsaldoBreda meets all
> the terms and conditions and financial guarantees.
> If they do,
> then the taxpayers get 100 new cars at
> $290,000,000.
>
snipped the rest..........

Ok we know what you're against, what is your solution to the areas transportation problems?

Anger, resentment, and attitude aren't policy, planning and action.

As many words on what you think should be done would be nice.

kdrtrains Wrote:
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> Oh well, it won't matter at all after 12-21-12

Aw, c'mon Kenny.

What, so many private cars to ride, and so little time to ride them? ;)

Sounds Like a good script to a Twilight Zone

Except the last running Locomotive is a GEVO That hasn`t had its turbo fixed,,and it blows

"It`s Not Fair,,there was Time..........."

CT97

What's 12-21-12? Is that the day the Mayan Calendar says the world will do a cosmic "reset" or celestial "game-over"? Somebody once compiled a list of all the times the world was supposed to come to an end, and to borrow a line from Rosanne Cash, "It Hasn't Happened Yet".

trainjunkie Wrote:
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Bart,

As you are the Executive Director of The Transit
Coalition, I can assure you that we will never see
eye to eye on anything related to mass transit in
Los Angeles. My opinion as an individual and a
taxpayer, is that the taxpayers of L.A. are going
to get hosed by this AnsaldoBreda deal. But it's
just that, my opinion.

Bart Replies: Actually, nothing wrong with a differing
opinion. We also approach a challenge differently. With
the Metro Board taking the Risk to do Business with
AnsaldoBreda, it becomes the job of The Coalition to
watchdog Metro and AnsaldoBreda. That includes helping
the news media with important details that should be
brought to light and watching the A-B and the City move
forward with their proposed factory.

-------------------------------------------------
I'm sure we both come from
completely different fundamental positions that
will prevent us from ever agreeing on anything
because, fundamentally, I think mass transit here
is completely dysfunctional, way too expensive for
the return to TAXPAYING CITIZENS, and, basically,
a complete waste of money. Needless to say, I
voted NO on Measure R.

Bart Replies: Yes, there is a difference. Without
Public Transportation, the mobility of the community
would be very limited and employers would have a
significantly difficult time obtaining workers. I
wonder if you realize that the streets and roads
only recover a small percentage from direct fuel
taxes and the rest of the cost comes from other sources.
I choose to support Measure R and think that the risk
will be find, as long as there is public overview and
transparency in government actions.

-------------------------------------------------
But just for giggles, to give you something to
shoot full of holes, and to entertain the fine
readers of Trainorders, I offer this.

Step back and look at the big picture here. Look
at AnsaldoBreda's track record, here and elsewhere
(Denmark, Washington DC, Atlanta, Boston, etc.).
They are completely unreliable and they should
have no credibility whatsoever. They shouldn't
even be on the radar, let alone be awarded a
contract. I don't care how many performance
clauses the contract has, all that means is that
WHEN (not IF) AnsaldoBreda breaches, assuming
there is some actual oversight from the Mayor's
office and the MTA to hold A-B accountable, this
will get tied up in court for years and just cost
the taxpayers even more money in the long run.

Bart Replies: People and companies are completely
full of risk when you don't supervise. Look at Metro's
record on bus procurement until 1997. No one wanted to
bid, because the agency was a hideous customer. Then
Metro put a Manager to work, who gets buses on-time,
on-budget and the manufacturer covers the warranty.
Metro originally had some good oversight on A-B, but
then the rail team left for Washington, DC and the
procurement team leader was replaced. Then CEO could
be identified as a root of the A-B problems, as oversight
lapsed and became a free fall.

In 2002 when Metro went out to bid, Siemens was non-
responsive to the technical specifications and A-B was
one of the two finalists. A-B came in far below the other
bid and won the contract. If A-B breaches (and I'd bet
they have of strong chance of doing so), Metro has a
pool of $75 million to penalize A-B and A-B's parent
has obligated to refill the pool. And, of course this
is all risk, as Metro may not have cars to operate
future rail lines.

-------------------------------------------------
But by then Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa will have
his precious downtown "green" manufacturing plant,
built by his billionaire buddy (and campaign
contributor) Stephen Bing and his Shangri-La
Construction company and Mayor V will have his
240,000 square foot legacy. By the way, is it a
coincidence that Villaraigosa's chief deputy
mayor, Jay Carson, was until recently, an employee
of Shangri-La Construction?


Bart Replies: Surprise, inside baseball. If anyone
here blows it, there are investigators waiting to
close in. If the plant gets built, there is a
paying tenant and jobs. And legal actions if there
is a breach. Again, risk taking. And jobs for the
public watchdogs.

-------------------------------------------------
Of course the manufacturing plant isn't in the
contract. That would be against Federal
regulations. But if you think it has nothing to do
with this contract going to A-B, then all I can
say is that you've been drinking too much of the
Kool-Aid being poured by Villaraigosa's press
office and A-B's Chris Lehane. If everything is so
much on the up and up, why would A-B even feel
compelled to hire political spinmeister Lehane, a
former aide to President Bill Clinton as their
media representative (at least he was as of April
of this year, not sure of his current status)?

Bart Replies: Actually, I don't know Lehane, but
I am aware of the major league full court press
behind the scenes including the website for A-B.
A-B knows how to work "Union Towns" such as San
Francisco and Boston, therefore orders. That doesn't
mean the Cities or the Transit Agencies have the staff
or skills to outwit A-B, as history seems to prove.

Now, these guys have their foot and more in the door.
What role does the Advocacy Community and the Fourth
Estate have to make sure that there is some level of
honesty? The Times reporter that I work with plans to
pursue A-B every inch of the way. If you see stories,
then the light will stay shining on A-B.

-------------------------------------------------
Furthermore, until now A-B has maintained that the
defects in the designs of the 37 LR cars they have
delivered are due to change orders from the MTA.
All of a sudden, now that they get to build their
precious manufacturing plant here and snag an
order for another 100 cars, they are suddenly
willing to "fix" the problems gratis? If the
problems really came from the MTA, they would be
sticking to their guns on this.

Something stinks here but it gets worse.

Bart Replies: No one has really investigated Metro
to see who is really responsible and what happened.
Seats that are 1/2" or 3/4" too narrow just don't
happen by magic. Making cars 10,000 lbs. too heavy
again had to have several decision makers involved.
Why haven't those folks come to light with their
decisions? The car fix: If that is part of the terms
to get another $290,000,000, then that is a cost of
doing business. Will the Italian Government back this?

-------------------------------------------------
What about A-B's exaggerated and unverified claims
that it will create 500 new unionized
manufacturing jobs in Los Angeles? This is nothing
more than Villaraigosa pandering to the AFL-CIO.

Anyone recall that back in 2003 the city of L.A.
offered A-B a chance to open a plant here and,
instead, they built it in Pittsburg, CA?

In Pittsburg, A-B was tossing around a lot of big
ideas and big talk, none of which ever happened.
A-B claimed they would create at least 200 jobs
there. Never happened, but here we go again. BTW,
A-B tried this tack in Miami and Madrid Spain as
well. Miami said "no thanks". I don't know what
happened in Spain.

Bart Replies: The employment numbers are bogus. We
both agree on that. Again, that is the job of a good
digging reporter to compare the truth to claims. What
are there...something like 37 jobs in Pittsburg?

-------------------------------------------------
All this aside, there is no way in hell that an
order for 100 rail cars can sustain a brand new
240,000 square foot manufacturing plant full of
union labor in downtown Los Angeles (or anywhere
in California). They will need orders for hundreds
and hundreds of new rail cars just to keep the
lights on. Where are those orders going to come
from? Not many municipalities or transit agencies
left who want anything to do with A-B.

It just doesn't add up. Why do we even give this
company the time of day?

Bart Replies: Based on the Rotem order at Metrolink,
their production goal is 8 cars per month. A-B would
have the order done in 13 months if they could work
at that pace. Of course, they've only completed 37
cars in 7 years, so perhaps the speed answer is in
a Soprano's episode. There is a dream from the electeds
that A-B will get CA HSR car orders and even Metrolink
orders. Want to place a bet on that?

-------------------------------------------------
You see, my friend, this whole things stinks of
nothing but dirty politics and hundreds of
thousands, if not millions of people like me are
sick and tired of it. And when things like this
stink this bad, taxpayers get hosed in the end.

You have your opinion and I have mine but neither
of us will know who is right until this all plays
out. But when it does, some day off in the future,
maybe after you and I have checked out from this
planet, don't say I didn't tell you so.

Bart Replies: I don't think you'll find that many
folks in favor of graft, corruption and other levels
of malfeasance. When you have the head of the LA
Federation of Labor entering the Board Member lunch
room while the meeting is in process to twist a few
Republican arms about all the jobs and you have close
to a 14% unemployment rate, you get some strange
outcomes. I personally thought this was going down,
but the Mayor certainly changed the outcome. Was it
legal? This is sure to be some further investigation.

And just like the gate deal, the politicians who let this
get through will be long gone when the failure or success
hits. But, I will continue to watchdog this along with
the other Transit Coalition professionals and experts.

To Bartreed-

In about 15 keystrokes can you explain your above thread?

stone23 Wrote:
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To Bartreed-

In about 15 keystrokes can you explain your above thread?
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Sure: Inside Baseball @ Metro

The light rail system here is a joke. I've enjoyed using light rail all over this country, and the world, and nowhere have I ever seen a system as useless as the one here in Los Angeles. It's like everything was an afterthought and designed to serve only the poorest neighborhoods where there are riders who have few other options. Actually, it's like someone took a map of L.A., with some red, blue, gold, green, and purple crayons, and handed them to a monkey and said, "Draw me a transit system". This "system" has not served city taxpayers well. Is it any wonder why some of us here are furious over more wasteful spending and with the city getting into bed with a supplier who has proven time and time again that they are completely unreliable?

Bart, let me put it this way. Take the downtown manufacturing plant off the table and do you think Villaraigosa would have fought so hard to make a deal with AnsaldoBreda? Whether they do this legally or not, that is all the Mayor is interested in. He doesn't work for the taxpayers. He works for the AFL-CIO and other labor unions. I hope someone does catch him when he slips up, but I doubt if it will ever happen. He's a slippery little devil but keep at it if this is your calling in life. I hope your group, or some group, nails him some day.

Never in my life, as a lifelong Angelino, have I ever witnessed a City Hall with such blatant disregard for the well being of its tax paying citizens. Everything that comes out of there these days panders to special interests, including groups that don't even belong in this country. If Villaraigosa was really interested in fiduciary accountability to taxpayers, he would start by cleaning house in some of these municipal agencies that are full of politicians instead of hard working, experienced, no-bull, transparent, get-the-job-done kinds of people whose mission in life is to provide a decent return to taxpayers on their investment. Instead, we have shady deals made by arrogant politicians who have an absolutely galling sense of entitlement - deals that require watchdog groups to follow their every step, from now until the end of time. Where's the leadership? Who on earth do these politicians represent?

It's time for massive political reform here but I guess if the guy at the top is as morally bankrupt as they come, there is no hope for this city. Until things change, I will continue to vote to keep my tax dollars in my pocket. That is, until I flee the southland, like most of the affluent tax base has been doing over the last 10 years or so. Then who is going to pay for this mess?

...WHEW!!!!!....

Mr. Trainjunkie: You have a kindred spirit in the legendary John Walsh, a local "gadfly" who has taken to ripping Mayor Villaraigosa at some of the Metro board meetings I've attended. Among other things, he quotes from a local magazine that shares his unfavorable (to say the least!) opinion of the Mayor. Not that I'm a fan of Mayor Tony or Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky--as a native of the San Gabriel Valley I consider them to be "the other side", although one report had them backing a light rail maintenance facility in our area, and of necessity, enough Foothill Extension Gold Line to reach it. Even though we can be affected by what the City of Los Angeles does, for the most part SGV residents read the LA city political news for its entertainment value.

I have been at a few meetings with that John Walsh guy.
He can be a riot at times during the meetings.




DNRY122 Wrote:
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> Mr. Trainjunkie: You have a kindred spirit in the
> legendary John Walsh, a local "gadfly" who has
> taken to ripping Mayor Villaraigosa at some of the
> Metro board meetings I've attended. Among other
> things, he quotes from a local magazine that
> shares his unfavorable (to say the least!) opinion
> of the Mayor. Not that I'm a fan of Mayor Tony or
> Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky--as a native of the San
> Gabriel Valley I consider them to be "the other
> side", although one report had them backing a
> light rail maintenance facility in our area, and
> of necessity, enough Foothill Extension Gold Line
> to reach it. Even though we can be affected by
> what the City of Los Angeles does, for the most
> part SGV residents read the LA city political news
> for its entertainment value.

Jerry Martin
Los Angeles, CA
Central Coast Railroad Festival

For those who are not familiar with the MTA rail history, the Blue line was planned and built in the 1980's by an agency known as the LA County Transportation Commission and at the same time the Red line was being built by the Southern California Rapid Transit District (now the MTA) which operated the 3000 bus system. It was always the intention that the MTA would operate both systems and it does. Metrolink came along many years later and the MTA has no operating connection with Metrolink. Just some ownership.

As for John Walsh, he has been the board gadfly since at least the early 1980's and I guess still is!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/09 07:12 by stone23.

bartreed Wrote:
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>
> Again, how are the taxpayers getting hosed? I'd
> really like some answers.

I remember Breda delivering a crappy product some years back to the Red Line. Logic would say that LA would never award another contract to this company. It is like going to a restaurant and getting food poisoning. Why go back again?

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

webmaster Wrote:
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bartreed Wrote:

Again, how are the taxpayers getting hosed? I'd
really like some answers.
--------------------------------------------------
I remember Breda delivering a crappy product some
years back to the Red Line. Logic would say that
LA would never award another contract to this
company. It is like going to a restaurant and
getting food poisoning. Why go back again?
--------------------------------------------------

Well, the Purple and Red Line cars have almost 20 years
of revenue service. There doesn't seem to be any comment
or clamor that these cars have issues or need to be junked.

Now the Blue Line Nippon Sharyo cars are referred to as
the "rust buckets", as people are always asking about the
bullet holes, which are the deteriorating bodies.

Like any public transit agency, bidding for rolling stock
is subject to procurement policies and state and federal
law. In 2002, Siemens did not opt to bid and AnsaldoBreda
was one of the two finalists. At the time, the rail staff
had acquired cars and got them running on other properties
and that team claimed they were able to handle AnsaldoBreda.

Within a few years promotional opportunities got that rail
team off to revitalize the problem plagued DC system.

And the LA team that took over didn't seem to have the same
skills or relationships to manage A-B. I think that is when
things went out of kilter with that order.

Now, with that first order of 50 cars, came two 50 car options
at $2.2 and $2.3 million per car. With an inflation index that
pricing went up to $2.9 million per car. If Metro went out
and rebid, the best price they would have got would be about
$3.7 million per car. So, the spread is about $80 million.

OK, so you are the Metro CEO and after working to get terms with
A-B, you find that it is hard to close a deal, so you come back
to the elected officials and recommend a pass. But A-B has a
special skill-set in Union Towns like Boston, S.F. and L.A. and
even the Republicans on the Board decide to give A-B another
chance. So, it becomes your job to follow the policy that your
board has set.

That holds true for staff, no matter how bad the roll of the
dice. So, we can comment from the sidelines, but we will have
to live with the decision. There really isn't any level of
public outrage and the political establishment is claiming
some major wins with new jobs coming when the chips are down.

If you really have the goods or documents that can cause a
change, then bring them forth. The Times will run with legitimate
documents and proof of malfeasance or corruption. But calling
and order of cars "crappy" isn't going to change the outcome.

By the way, Mike Cannell, Metro Rail General Manager is going
to be at the October meeting of The Transit Coalition. You are
more than welcome to attend. Mike may be candid among friends.
http://www.transitcoalition.org You can also see Art Leahy
in action at our last meeting in glorious YouTube color:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=85FCB7083F892757 where
you can decide for yourself. Art seems like the real thing to me.