Passenger Trains > What happend to the Cross Country Cafes?

Whatever became of the Cross Country Cafe cars? Several TO members and I rode in one of the Northbound Starlight detour on June 22nd, 2008 over Tehachapi and I really liked them. Sure beat the heck out of the Cafe's on the San Joaquin's. I know they were using them on the City of New Orleans for awhile, do they still? What are Amtrak's plans with them, are they going to build anymore? I say convert the diner that caught fire in Oakland into one. What did you guys think of them? Below is a photo from inside the one we had on the Starlight substituting for the parlour car.

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They look nice, and I'm sure they were fine for just hanging out...but they are horrible for meal service. I hope they go away!

They would work great if operated on LD trains as a cafe-lounge, if in addition to, not instead of, a full diner.

John Webb
Trinidad, CA

Cross Country Cafes currently operate on the City of New Orleans and Texas Eagle. However, on the Texas Eagle a Superliner Sightseer Lounge is included in the consist, as opposed to the consists of the City of New Orleans train sets. The Cross Country Cafes were a complete flop. They were to be used basically as you would see them on the City of New Orleans - a combination diner and lounge car (the Superliner Sightseer Lounge was to be sidelined, retired, or stored). They worked out so poorly on the Capitol Limited that Amtrak is trying to convert the Capitol Limited train sets back to have a regular full service Superliner Diner (not the Cross Country Cafe interior design). Granted Amtrak needed to overhaul the Superliner I Diners, but they overhauled too many, and many Superliner Cross Country Cafe cars remain idle and are not used. About 17 were converted, when only about 7 are needed to cover operations of the Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans - leaving 10 as spares once the Capitol Limited is returned to a full service Superliner Diner. These cars do not "cut it" as a full service diner when in a consist with two Superliner sleepers and two to three Superliner coaches. And they certainly are not a good substitute for a combo diner/lounge. One of the most unique cars in the Amtrak system is the Superliner Sightseer Lounge, so not having these cars with a diner car is not going to win over passengers on a California Zephyr train set. They may work on the City of New Orleans just because it is a relatively short route with one sleeper, some sleeper space sold in the Trans/Dorm Sleeper, and two coaches largely. As mentioned Amtrak tried to duplicate this with the Capitol Limited, but without the Sightseer Lounge Car and having two Superliner sleepers, sleeper space sold in the Trans/Dorm Sleeper as well as a relatively full consist from end point to end point it just didn't work.

The future for these cars? Who knows. I was hoping they would sort of use them as a "lounge" for sleeping car passengers, similiar to the Pacific Parlor Car used on the Coast Starlight. The Portland section of the Empire Builder is "rumored" to be getting a Superliner Diner Lite (Cross Country Cafe Car) - but time will tell. Also rumored is the fact that if the Sunset Limited routing is restructured so that a "day time" train emerges from San Antonio to New Orleans, it would use a Superliner Cross County Cafe, along with two Superliner coaches. Then the Texas Eagle would be the "through train" from Chicago to San Antonio to LA. The train between Seattle to Vancouver, BC - that typically runs with a Talgo train set - will get substituted with a Superliner train set (two coaches and a Cross Country Cafe) when the Talgo train set protecting that route is sent in for service. If the Cardinal is ever converted to a Superliner train set, I could see this train operating with a Cross Country Cafe, rather than a full service Superliner Diner. But if this train set is converted to a Superliner train, it really needs a Superliner Sightseer Lounge car so passengers can really take in the fantastic scenery along this route! However, with a Superliner train set, the Cardinal would have to revert back to a Washington DC terminus, rather than a NYC terminus!

They were very nice cars, granted a Parlor car would have been my #1 choice but that was a great stand in.

Ryan

My #6 of 12/31 had one of these, but boy...did we have problems. Train was an hour late into Sac. due to the #5 from the previous day arriving into Emeryville 11 hours off the adverstised, so that's where it all started. Then before we arrived into Winnemucca, NV the diner crew annocuned that full meals for both sleeper car passengers and those in coach would be unavalible for the night, no reason was given. Heard rumors through the crew it was due to the elevator that carries the food up from the kictchen level (1) to the top level (2) in the car.

Was forced to have a small sandwhich and coke for dinner, not the greatest thing when you pay for all meals included with your sleeping compartment. Upon arriving into Winnemccua, we were delayed around 15-20 mins (an hour late still, no time had up over Donner) to wait for a resuply car to give our train four simple, small boxes it would turn out to the diner crew.

Later in the night found myself perfetly timed to catch the dropping of one of these boxes if front of me when it came out of the elevator (now fixed...?): turns out that it was only full of simple hamburger buns. Upon walking through the rest of the car to the Observation Lounge, I was suprised to see the sleeping car attendant of my sleeper enjoying a full meal himself.

As good as our conductor & engine crews seemed to be for the trip here...it seemed the car attendants and the diner crew were just lacking the entire way. Frankly I can't blame them if they were the same crew on the late #5...but they didn't seem to care to show it. Just my opinion. I thought all the staff onboard were great people to talk to, don't get me wrong, its just the way they did their job is all. I enjoy the regular diners myself. When you have a camera bag with you and you try to sqeez in with another person into one of he seats..its not the easist thing! ;)

Unfortunately the Cardinal cannot be converted to a Superliner train because it uses the Capitol Hill tunnel to access Washington Union Station, same as the Crescent and Florida trains.

I rode the Sunset on 1/30 and a "diner lite" was used as the lounge car instead of a Sightseer. Worked ok for that.

The depressing thing about the "diner lite" is that it was conceived as a way to cheaply replace the diner AND lounge on long distance trains. Fortunately this was a BAD idea that even Amtrak realized was not going to work. Amtrak should be able to find a way to use the diner lites they have (Portland Empire Builder please!), but NO more conversions.

Most sane people knew it would not work back when it was in the blueprint stage. But Amtrak being Amtrak, they went ahead and spent about 2 million bucks per car....then said "whoopsie". Excellent use of their finances.

Daze Wrote:
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> Unfortunately the Cardinal cannot be converted to
> a Superliner train because it uses the Capitol
> Hill tunnel to access Washington Union Station...


Note that the Capitol Hill Tunnel offers NO clearance restrictions to Superliners. The Cardinal ran Superliners previously (the late 1990s); clearances were not a problem then, and they are not a problem now.

NORTH of Washington, the Superliners cannot be used.

wasn't this a result of the Bush admininstration displeasure with amtrak and the losses, in the diner, and was singled out, went forward under the Tom Downs or whoever took over after Gunn was fired, and the x UP guy kept the program going.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/10 12:51 by dan.

If they continue to just sit around, I'd love to see Amtrak California lease them for the San Joaquins. It would be wonderful to have some sort of a lounge on those trains, since it is a short-distance route and not just a corridor. I think they'd be very popular and welcome on the San Joaquin's!

Jarrod DellaChiesa
Oakley, CA

jp1822 Wrote:
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> Cross Country Cafes currently operate on the City
> of New Orleans and Texas Eagle. However, on the
> Texas Eagle a Superliner Sightseer Lounge is
> included in the consist, as opposed to the
> consists of the City of New Orleans train sets.
> The Cross Country Cafes were a complete flop. They
> were to be used basically as you would see them on
> the City of New Orleans - a combination diner and
> lounge car (the Superliner Sightseer Lounge was to
> be sidelined, retired, or stored). They worked out
> so poorly on the Capitol Limited that Amtrak is
> trying to convert the Capitol Limited train sets
> back to have a regular full service Superliner
> Diner (not the Cross Country Cafe interior
> design). Granted Amtrak needed to overhaul the
> Superliner I Diners, but they overhauled too many,
> and many Superliner Cross Country Cafe cars remain
> idle and are not used. About 17 were converted,
> when only about 7 are needed to cover operations
> of the Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans -
> leaving 10 as spares once the Capitol Limited is
> returned to a full service Superliner Diner. These
> cars do not "cut it" as a full service diner when
> in a consist with two Superliner sleepers and two
> to three Superliner coaches. And they certainly
> are not a good substitute for a combo
> diner/lounge. One of the most unique cars in the
> Amtrak system is the Superliner Sightseer Lounge,
> so not having these cars with a diner car is not
> going to win over passengers on a California
> Zephyr train set. They may work on the City of New
> Orleans just because it is a relatively short
> route with one sleeper, some sleeper space sold in
> the Trans/Dorm Sleeper, and two coaches largely.
> As mentioned Amtrak tried to duplicate this with
> the Capitol Limited, but without the Sightseer
> Lounge Car and having two Superliner sleepers,
> sleeper space sold in the Trans/Dorm Sleeper as
> well as a relatively full consist from end point
> to end point it just didn't work.
>
> The future for these cars? Who knows. I was hoping
> they would sort of use them as a "lounge" for
> sleeping car passengers, similiar to the Pacific
> Parlor Car used on the Coast Starlight. The
> Portland section of the Empire Builder is
> "rumored" to be getting a Superliner Diner Lite
> (Cross Country Cafe Car) - but time will tell.
> Also rumored is the fact that if the Sunset
> Limited routing is restructured so that a "day
> time" train emerges from San Antonio to New
> Orleans, it would use a Superliner Cross County
> Cafe, along with two Superliner coaches. Then the
> Texas Eagle would be the "through train" from
> Chicago to San Antonio to LA. The train between
> Seattle to Vancouver, BC - that typically runs
> with a Talgo train set - will get substituted with
> a Superliner train set (two coaches and a Cross
> Country Cafe) when the Talgo train set protecting
> that route is sent in for service. If the Cardinal
> is ever converted to a Superliner train set, I
> could see this train operating with a Cross
> Country Cafe, rather than a full service
> Superliner Diner. But if this train set is
> converted to a Superliner train, it really needs a
> Superliner Sightseer Lounge car so passengers can
> really take in the fantastic scenery along this
> route! However, with a Superliner train set, the
> Cardinal would have to revert back to a Washington
> DC terminus, rather than a NYC terminus!


The above posting is an excellent summary. Many crews did not like the cars because they were difficult to serve in and often understaffed (3-4 employees). However, this input was apparently disregarded; although the initial test of a prototype car on the Capital Limited did not go well and identified many issues the program was pushed forward anyway. The car interior is attractive, but not very functional.
On a personal note, the interior facing seats which give a view primarily of the patrons on the opposite side are a less desirable choice than looking out at the scenery(you feel a little like a peeping tom); a similar configuration was tried on a NYC 20th Century Limited diner in the late 1940s but the idea did not catch on then either. Currently, the lounge section is arguably too small(four tables), often forcing a mixture of diners and drinkers -- something virtually all restaurants avoid by having a separate bar.

While Amtrak would love to have a full diner on the Capital Limited.
with plans moving ahead for a daily Eagle Chicago-Los Angeles, they will not have enough
full diners for that train either.

A major problem is only one elevator.

"Unfortunately, the Cardinal cannot be converted to a superliner train..."

This myth continues. The tunnel was enlarged many years ago. The Cardinal once ran as a superliner train Washington-Chicago.

Here's photos in 1997 from the rear of #50, passing #51, at milepost 279.

B&OB

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The only solution I see for the Capitol Ltd is to reverse the consist, remove the 3rd Superliner coach, send a Pennsylvanian Business-Dinette and Amfleet-2 coach thru to Chicago and take pressure off that Diner.

Well, since I rode from Huntington, WV to Washington Union Station in a Superliner "roomette" and had lunch and dinner in a Superliner diner, back in 2003 or so, I find the assertion that Superliners cannot fit through the Capitol Hill tunnel fascinating. I think I'm beginning to understand how people can believe the World Trade Center towers were actually destroyed with explosives. I mean, who cares if we've got photos that show planes (or Superliners on the Cardinal). "Who ya gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes!"

A few years back they offered sit-down dining service on the San Joaquins , using a California Cafe and 2 LSAs. These cars would be an EXCELLENT candidate for restoring that service. On the same note, they would be a much better cafe car than the existing Surfliner cars (upper level coach seats, lower level cafe area - totally inadequate for these trains).

I say get them out here and put 'em to work!

The thought of them sitting around gathering dust is a damn shame.

As far as the CL diner is concerned, it may now be awhile before it is restored since that diner off of 5 burned up in Oakland. I am certainly hoping they get it back since I am riding 29 to Chicago Memorial Day weekend.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, VA

djansson Wrote:
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> A few years back they offered sit-down dining
> service on the San Joaquins , using a California
> Cafe and 2 LSAs. These cars would be an EXCELLENT
> candidate for restoring that service. On the same
> note, they would be a much better cafe car than
> the existing Surfliner cars (upper level coach
> seats, lower level cafe area - totally inadequate
> for these trains).
>
> I say get them out here and put 'em to work!
>
> The thought of them sitting around gathering dust
> is a damn shame.
"Put 'em to work"??? These pathetic "rebuilds" have had all their functionality destroyed, and could not serve three customers at the same time without major delays, and at 2 mil/copy, just wasted $$$, totally wasted. AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

We had one of these on #4 before Christmas. The table was too small to comfortably fit three diners - see the oddly shaped tables that are sort of but not exactly like a booth. We also had an oddball lounge that had the old lounge seating at one end and tables at the other!

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA