Passenger Trains > Train numbers - what's their logic?

Next month, I'll ride the Cardinal (Train 51) from Charlottesville to Chicago. I noticed that it is Train 51 headed out to Chicago and Train 50 on the return trip. Can someone please help me understand the numbering system on passenger trains? Do the train numbers remain the same? Could some kind and patient soul please explain how this numbering system works?

Thanks.

Rose Thornton

I believe odd westbound and even eastbound. I am more guessing on odd north and even south.

Bob

In general, even numbers are used for eastbound and northbound trains, odd numbers for westward and southward ones.

(I remember it as both the E in East and the N in North being a part of the word EveN.)

Exceptions are trains formerly operated by Southern Pacific. Their practice was to call any train heading toward San Francisco (their headquarters) "westbound" and any train heading away from SF "eastbound," regardless of their actual compass direction. They didn't really recognize the concept of north/south, so the Pacific Surfliner route and Caltrain commuter trains are numbered even for southbounds (since they are heading away from SF, or "east" and, thus, even) and odd for northbounds.

I've got to run for now, but I'm sure someone will be able to fill you in on the really neat thing about the train numbers for the Coast Starlight. :-)

Are there any other oddities in the Amtrak network?

Interestingly, airlines don't seem to have as much of an even/odd thing as the railroads do. I've seen a two segment flight operate from LA to Santa Barbara, CA and back to LA on the same flight number!

Rose: All passenger trains have a number (just as all flights have numbers). It has long been a railroad practice that if a train in one direction was given a number, say, #50, it's counterpart in the returning direction was given the #51. This is the usual case, but it doesn't have to be.

So, depending on which direction your trip starts from, your outbound train could be #51, and you would return on #50.

I don't think there is much "logic" to train numbering. There is a lot of railroad tradition in some cases. For example, The Sunset Limited has carried the numbers 1 and 2 since they began over a hundred years ago, I believe.

Hope this helps.
Joe

The even for eastbound and northbound convention is quite widespread, though in Canada (and for Canadian-owned lines in the USA) it appears that even is used for eastbound and southbound.

How numbers are paired is not as predictable. For example, Amtrak #50-51 are the two sides of the Cardinal, but Amtrak #29-30 are the two sides of the Capitol Limited.

Amtrak #11 and #14 being the two numbers for the Coast Starlight are a consequence of the SP train identification convention cited earlier; for SP's purposes, the Coast Starlight ran with two different numbers on each trip -- an odd number headed toward the Bay Area and an even number away from it. So the northbound was #13 until it got to San Jose or Oakland (not sure which) and became #14, while the southbound changed from #11 to #12 at the same point. This was true only for operating employees; for passengers the #11 and #14 numbers didn't change, and Amtrak's #12-13 were mail trains on the East Coast, no longer operating.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/10 19:58 by toledopatch.

bwb6df Wrote:
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> Exceptions are trains formerly operated by
> Southern Pacific. Their practice was to call any
> train heading toward San Francisco (their
> headquarters) "westbound" and any train heading
> away from SF "eastbound,"

All SP trains were either Eastbound or Westbound as was the Santa Fe. Except their HQ was Chicago. So for instance, Train #15 (Texas Chief) was Westbound from Chicago to Houston but an eastbound on the SP between Rosenberg and Houston, TX. The Longview Sub. was an exception to the exception. I doubt if it was the only one.

RailNet802, out

Rose,

Train numbers are similar to airline flight numbers, in that they apply to a particular scheduled service, not the specific equipment used to operate that service. So in the case of your train, "51" applies to the scheduled service that departs Washington for Chicago three days per week, much like "flight 333" might refer to a daily departure from city A to city B. The locomotives and cars used to provide the service will vary from trip to trip, and each piece of equipment will have its own unique number independent of train number. Because most Amtrak long distance trains are scheduled to take multiple calendar days to get from origin to destination, specific trains are often informally referred to by the train number followed by the date of origin - for example train 3 leaving Chicago today for Los Angeles is #3(6) - indicating January 6 - where as the previous day's departure - which still hasn't reached LA - is #3 (5).

Not sure if this what you're asking, but hope it helps.

Dave

toledopatch Wrote:
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> So the northbound was #13 until it got to
> San Jose or Oakland (not sure which) and became
> #14, while the southbound changed from #12 to #11
> at the same point.

SP ran them as #11 Seattle to Oakland, #12 Oakland to Los Angeles.

#13 Los Angeles to Oakland, and #14 Oakland to Seattle.

The number 11 came from the old SP Cascade train, which used to run as trains #11 and #12 between Portland and Oakland. Then when Amtrak came into the picture, there were two separate trains, the 'Starlight' as #11 and #14 running the full length between Los Angeles and Seattle only three times a week, and the 'Daylight' (post 1971) as #12 and #13 which ran daily between Oakland and Los Angeles. When the Starlight became a daily train, the Daylight went away and that's how #11 and #14 stuck. From the passenger's view, they were trains 11 and 14. From operation's view, they were 11, 12, 13, 14 as mentioned earlier in my post.

If you look at an Amtrak map of the western US, you will notice that the long distance train numbers increase from south to north. So the most southerly route, the Sunset Limited, is given the numbers 1 and 2 (which also were the numbers Southern Pacific used as previously noted). The next train to the north, the Southwest Chief, is numbers 3 and 4. Next to the north is the California Zephyr, which is 5 and 6. The most northerly train is the Empire Builder, trains 7 and 8. When the North Coast Hiawatha operated in the 1970's, it was 9 and 10 (even though it actually operated south of the Empire Builder route for more than half of its route).

Trains that branch off of these main trains are given the same number with a prefix. The Spokane-Portland section of the Empire Builder is thus given the numbers 27 and 28 (2 before the 7 and 8). The San Antonio-Chicago "branch" of the Sunset Limited, called the Texas Eagle, is 21 and 22. The Fort Worth - Oklahoma City branch of the Texas Eagle is 821 and 822. (I think the higher number prefixes are reserved for state supported trains, but I will defer to experts on that.)

To be honest, I haven't studied eastern train numbers enough to determine a pattern.

Consider that the SP Coast Line had 98 and 99 (The Daylights) and 75 and 76 (The Larks)--in one case the odd number is higher and in the other the odd number is lower.

In the really-old days, in general (there were always exceptions) the most important through trains had the lowest numbers. While it got more complicated for a railroad like the Pennsylvania with hundreds of trains, take for example a medium-sized railroad with a three first class through trains. They would usually be numbered 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and 5 and 6. Connecting trains on secondary mains or branches, if still first class, would usually carry a related number like 11 and 12, 13 and 14, etc. Depending on how many numbers got used up how fast, second class trains usually were similarly sequenced with higher numbers, like 51 and 52, etc.

First and second class freights would often start with much higer numbers -- 101 and 102, 201 and 202, etc.

While it doesn't take much imagination to understand that as railroads expanded, merged, entered into connecting agreements with other railroads, etc. etc., the system didn't take long to dissolve into relative chaos, it still survives today to some degree -- witness the Texas Eagle, trains 21 and 22, connecting with the Sunset, trains 1 and 2. Also the Heartland Flyer, trains 821 and 822. And speaking of which what are #s 421 and 422?? I searched the entire national timetable and the only reference to these numbers are for the Texas Eagle, listed as trains 21/421 and 22/422. There are a couple 4-number Thruway Bus connections that start with these numbers, and there are slashed California Service numbers but none that contain these two.

lowwater

The higher number north has kind of the same logic in the east. The Capital Limited is 29 west and 30 east, the Cardinal (New York to Chicago via Washington) is 51 west and 50 east, the Lake Shore (New York to Chicago via Buffalo) is 49 west and 48 east. The LSL sections to Boston are 449 west and 448 east.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, VA

421/422 were the through cars to LA on the Texas Eagle, I believe. In general, the 400 series has been reserved for "through cars" of that nature, including the Boston section of the Lake Shore.

60s seem to be used for medium distance Northeastern trains (Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Montrealer, Night Owl), 80s and 90s for southeastern medium and long-distance trains. 70s used to be Empire Service before those were changed to 200s. Not sure why the Vermonter (successor to the Montrealer) is 55-56 instead of 60-61.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/10 06:51 by toledopatch.

Metrolink numbers are even for eastbounds, as per RR tradition, and follow the old railroad sense of direction (e.g. "east" from Lancaster to LA because that was east on the old SP, going away from San Francisco). The Inland Empire-Orange County trains "change direction" by going west out of San Bernardino toward Atwood and end up going RR east once on the San Diego line.
The sequence is: 100s Ventura County, 200s Antelope Valley, 300s San Bernardino, 400s Riverside (via UP), 600s Riverside (via BNSF), 800s Inland Empire to Orange County, and 900s Los Angeles to Burbank Airport shuttles. The 500 and 700 series is used in the Los Angeles area by Amtrak's Surfliners, and (we hope) there is no overlapping train numbers.

Also in the East there are the Pennsylvanians nos. 42, 43 and 44. (The Eastbound on Sunday runs on a different schedule so they run train 44 instead of 42.) The dearly departed Three Rivers, (nee Broadway Limited was no. 40 and 41. Keystone and Downeaster trains are in the 600 series.

One other thing worth noting: I believe the Montreal-bound Adirondack is #69 and the New York-bound Adirondack is #68. This is the reverse of the northbound-even convention, but is consistent with the numbering of other New York-Albany-beyond trains which consider trains leaving New York to be westbound, even though they go compass north as far as Rensselaer (and travel south from there toward New York).

railstiesballast Wrote:
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> The sequence is: 100s Ventura County, 200s
> Antelope Valley, 300s San Bernardino, 400s
> Riverside (via UP), 600s Riverside (via BNSF),
> 800s Inland Empire to Orange County, and 900s Los
> Angeles to Burbank Airport shuttles. The 500 and
> 700 series is used in the Los Angeles area by
> Amtrak's Surfliners, and (we hope) there is no
> overlapping train numbers.

The numbers radiate in a clockwise direction with one exception to prevent overlapping train numbers.

Most of what you said is correct, with a few minor corrections.

100s = Ventura County Line (northnemost Metrolink route)
200s = Antelope Valley Line (Next route clockwise/East)
300s = San Bernardino Line
400s = Riverside Line
600s = Orange County Line (Exception!)
700s = 91 Line (Actually runs further north than the OC line thus should be numbered in the 600s, but this was done to prevent overlapping train numbers between the Surfliners and OC Line)

Oddballs:
800s = Inland Empire Line (This line doesn't branch out from LA, it's suburb-to-suburb)
900s = Bob Hope Shuttles (Supplementary Service between LA and Burbank Airport on the Ventura County Line)

Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful replies! I knew there had to be some sort of logic to the numbering.

Thanks again.

Rose