Passenger Trains > Ohio's new ODOT Director

Things are getting clearer in Ohio. Railway Age did a nice editorial on the 3-C in Ohio. Here is the link:

http://www.railwayage.com/from-the-editor/from-the-editor-beware-of-the-train-cult-in-ohio-and-elsewhere.html

What is perhaps most disconcerting is that the new ODOT Director has spent the last 11 years as a lobbyist for the asphalt industry. Shocking (not).

Well, we have already discussed the article one time. Here's the link if everyone wants to start up where we left off:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2342337

On the last thread I mentioned "cargo cults". That pretty well describes how a handful of conventional passenger trains would have done such wonderful things for the state of Ohio.

North Carolina is mentioned in the article:

“And Shaner had a parting shot for the governor-elect: ‘Don’t worry. No one’s trying to pry your cold, white-knuckled fingers away from that steering wheel. But if we want to attract new investment, slow the brain drain, and catch up with our competitors in North Carolina and elsewhere, we need to expand—not contract—our transportation options.’”

Personally I like what NC has done, but really what does North Carolina have to show for the last couple of decades? Three pairs of trains and a bunch of nice stations, but new and rehabbed. I doubt if rail's market share has shown any positive growth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/10 08:41 by ts1457.

This editorial is already mentioned and posted 8 days ago........

Ah, and the new DOT head is a good friend of the dear new Governor. Geez, wonder why he did not want the train... LOL... It is becoming clearer now!!!!!!!

More Highway Lobby people it looks like...


Steve

You know, not everyone saw it 8 days ago, me included. Is it some sort of crime, Koch, for something to get posted again? Thanks for making me feel like an idiot for posting again. Sorry I did not go back through 8 days of messages to be SURE it had not already been posted! My bad, my bad, my bad.

Frankly, I am beginning to think it is not worth posting here. If you do something somebody does not like, they feel this strange urge to tell you, and the world, all about it. If you don't like seeing the post again, don't click on it!

Ah, let's drive to oblivion, since we can't seem to get serious about any alternatives to the auto and all the destruction of land and resources that have accompanied slurban development since WWII.

korotaj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, let's drive to oblivion, since we can't seem
> to get serious about any alternatives to the auto
> and all the destruction of land and resources that
> have accompanied slurban development since WWII.

Yep, these magical, mystical four pairs of trains a day are going to turn everything around. LIke I said - cargo cult.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> korotaj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ah, let's drive to oblivion, since we can't
> seem
> > to get serious about any alternatives to the
> auto
> > and all the destruction of land and resources
> that
> > have accompanied slurban development since
> WWII.
>
> Yep, these magical, mystical four pairs of trains
> a day are going to turn everything around. LIke I
> said - cargo cult.

Even a might Northwest redwood tree (whatever they're properly called) starts as a small seed, and the 3C Corridor was precisely that......a seed. It was a reintroduction of train service into a state that doesn't really have anything now for the local market. It makes sense....frequencies later can be expanded if there's demand. Look at the Capitol Corridor, or San Joaquins.

It is much easier to go from conventional rail service to high-speed rail service, than from nothing to TGV. Can't go from crawling to running....gotta learn to walk first (to use another analogy). Sure there's execution risk, but that doesn't mean it should not be tried.

korotaj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, let's drive to oblivion, since we can't seem
> to get serious about any alternatives to the auto
> and all the destruction of land and resources that
> have accompanied slurban development since WWII.

Things were so much better when people lived in the ghetto, and walked to work or took the streetcar, when there was work. Personal automobiles wrecked all of that.

<G>

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Things were so much better when people lived in
> the ghetto, and walked to work or took the
> streetcar, when there was work. Personal
> automobiles wrecked all of that.

Uh...ghetto? Really?

(At least in Chicago if not elsewhere, the expressways to support the movement of the personal auto folks between the suburbs and the city were substantially responsible for creating what later became known as the ghetto by selecting routes through the poor and working class neighborhoods and displacing/compressing them into a smaller area.)

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Things were so much better when people lived in
> > the ghetto, and walked to work or took the
> > streetcar, when there was work. Personal
> > automobiles wrecked all of that.
>
> Uh...ghetto? Really?
>
> (At least in Chicago if not elsewhere, the
> expressways to support the movement of the
> personal auto folks between the suburbs and the
> city were substantially responsible for creating
> what later became known as the ghetto by selecting
> routes through the poor and working class
> neighborhoods and displacing/compressing them into
> a smaller area.)
>
> TAW


Philip Roth uses the term in several of his books describing the largely Jewish neighborhoods of Newark in the 1940s and early 1950s.

The expressways came later, at least around here. Your experience may differ, of course.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Things were so much better when people lived
> in
> > > the ghetto, and walked to work or took the
> > > streetcar, when there was work. Personal
> > > automobiles wrecked all of that.
> >
> > Uh...ghetto? Really?
> >
> > (At least in Chicago if not elsewhere, the
> > expressways to support the movement of the
> > personal auto folks between the suburbs and the
> > city were substantially responsible for
> creating
> > what later became known as the ghetto by
> selecting
> > routes through the poor and working class
> > neighborhoods and displacing/compressing them
> into
> > a smaller area.)
> >
> > TAW
>
>
> Philip Roth uses the term in several of his books
> describing the largely Jewish neighborhoods of
> Newark in the 1940s and early 1950s.
>
> The expressways came later, at least around here.
> Your experience may differ, of course.

AND I suggest a little research into the origin of the phrase "Philadelphia Main Line"!!

lowwater

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Things were so much better when people lived
> in
> > > the ghetto, and walked to work or took the
> > > streetcar, when there was work. Personal
> > > automobiles wrecked all of that.
> >
> > Uh...ghetto? Really?
> >
> > (At least in Chicago if not elsewhere, the
> > expressways to support the movement of the
> > personal auto folks between the suburbs and the
> > city were substantially responsible for
> creating
> > what later became known as the ghetto by
> selecting
> > routes through the poor and working class
> > neighborhoods and displacing/compressing them
> into
> > a smaller area.)
> >
> > TAW
>
>
> Philip Roth uses the term in several of his books
> describing the largely Jewish neighborhoods of
> Newark in the 1940s and early 1950s.
>
> The expressways came later, at least around here.
> Your experience may differ, of course.

Oh..the _original_ use of the term. Gotcha. That's different. I use the term in that manner regularly to describe, for example, the urban sprawl subdivisions of McMansions as a faux rich folks ghetto and the concentration of medical facilities on Capitol Hill in Seattle as the medical ghetto.

TAW

ChS7-321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is much easier to go from conventional rail
> service to high-speed rail service, than from
> nothing to TGV. Can't go from crawling to
> running....gotta learn to walk first (to use
> another analogy). Sure there's execution risk,
> but that doesn't mean it should not be tried.

We won't get there (i.e. increasing market share for intercity rail) in the USA with a bottom up approach. We need one good high speed corridor demonstration that saves billions in highway and airport expansion. Then the population will start taking rail seriously. Projects like 3C can actually be counterproductive in getting the public to want rail.

goxmit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Frankly, I am beginning to think it is not worth
> posting here. If you do something somebody does
> not like, they feel this strange urge to tell you,
> and the world, all about it. If you don't like
> seeing the post again, don't click on it!

And whenever someone forgets to post the location of a state, they are often rudely reminded, and it seems only one state is targeted (I did a quick search through several threads and noticed a pattern). Gotta ignore such pettiness, because they'll never go away.

I've already made my comments on the previous thread, but this is business as usual, people in power helping out lobbies and friends. The asphalt lobby has plenty of opportunities to make money, as there are enough crumbling roads to fix for the forseeable future. Paseenger rail is not a threat - I've yet to hear of any roads or highways being removed as a result of it?

If ODOT Jerry Wray and Governor Kasich are conspiring to kill passenger rail on the 3C just for asphalt lobby, then it demonstrates how diseased people in power really are, that they are willing to shove highways down our throats just to maximize the profit for their lobby. Nothing new - I say once again, National City Lines. I'm surprised this kind of "transportation planning" is not laughed at by the rest of the developed world every single day!

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChS7-321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is much easier to go from conventional rail
> > service to high-speed rail service, than from
> > nothing to TGV. Can't go from crawling to
> > running....gotta learn to walk first (to use
> > another analogy). Sure there's execution
> risk,
> > but that doesn't mean it should not be tried.
>
> We won't get there (i.e. increasing market share
> for intercity rail) in the USA with a bottom up
> approach. We need one good high speed corridor
> demonstration that saves billions in highway and
> airport expansion. Then the population will start
> taking rail seriously. Projects like 3C can
> actually be counterproductive in getting the
> public to want rail.

Actually, the 'demonstration project' approach will generate the HST version of the Seattle monorail.

Some lucky area will have poor transportation and a tourist train. The rest will have the same nothing they had before and will be just sooooo interested in contributing to the Christmas tree train set of the winner. America can proclaim that we've done it and move on to something else.


TAW

lowwater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (snip)
> AND I suggest a little research into the origin of
> the phrase "Philadelphia Main Line"!!
>
> lowwater

Right. It came from the Main Line of Public Works, which was a canal. The upscale suburbs in the Philadelphia area and the train line came later.

Canals were considered to be dirty places, with mule driving workers, women of the night servicing the canal basins where boats tied up, etc. It wasn't until the canal business slowed down that the swells built their mansions out in Merion, Stratford, etc

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, the 'demonstration project' approach
> will generate the HST version of the Seattle
> monorail.

I said that the project would have to save on billions on airport and highway expansions. I don't think the Seattle monorail ever came close to doing that. It's too late to avoid the O'Hare expansion, but a HSR trunk line through Chicago could obviate the need for ever building a third airport in the region.

> Some lucky area will have poor transportation and
> a tourist train. The rest will have the same
> nothing they had before and will be just sooooo
> interested in contributing to the Christmas tree
> train set of the winner. America can proclaim that
> we've done it and move on to something else.
>
>
> TAW

I think you just described what the voters rejected in Wisconsin and Ohio.

Your Cascades runs through an area where the geography constrains transportation corridors, so it is one of the few regions which is more favorable for incremental development. Since you are a numbers guy, I'm curious how the market share of auto, bus, air, and rail in that corridor has changed since the start of the Cascades project?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/10 05:58 by ts1457.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually, the 'demonstration project' approach
> > will generate the HST version of the Seattle
> > monorail.
>
> I said that the project would have to save on
> billions on airport and highway expansions. I
> don't think the Seattle monorail ever came close
> to doing that. It's too late to avoid the O'Hare
> expansion, but a HSR trunk line through Chicago
> could obviate the need for ever building a third
> airport in the region.
>
> > Some lucky area will have poor transportation
> and
> > a tourist train. The rest will have the same
> > nothing they had before and will be just sooooo
> > interested in contributing to the Christmas
> tree
> > train set of the winner. America can proclaim
> that
> > we've done it and move on to something else.
> >
> >
> > TAW
>
> I think you just described what the voters
> rejected in Wisconsin and Ohio.

I don't think so. The voters didn't vote _against_ anything. The voters voted _for_ the same kind of lobbying that has caused them to follow the oil and auto industry like children following the pied piper (and keep the government out of my Medicare too!).


>
> Your Cascades runs through an area where the
> geography constrains transportation corridors, so
> it is one of the few regions which is more
> favorable for incremental development.

Since any country that has HSR got there through incremental development, and some of them have places that kind of look like Ohio, I can't see the the exclusion of Ohio or anywhere else in the US as opportune for incremental development.

>Since you
> are a numbers guy, I'm curious how the market
> share of auto, bus, air, and rail in that corridor
> has changed since the start of the Cascades
> protect?

With 4 trains per day on mediocre schedules? Market share is the wrong measurement, so I haven't bothered. Trains are well occupied and ridership for them has grown far beyond the projections for this service level.

TAW

One thing I had never thought about until now, but the comment from the new ODOT director about competing with NC for certain industries got me thinking...

Some background: back in 2002, the Cannon Mills / Pillowtex textile facility in Kannapolis NC shut down for good. Having taken a couple of geography courses in college that dealt with urban planning, spatial location theory, etc, I was pretty sure that the entire town would dry up as so many rust belt towns did when their factories shut down. However, within a couple of years, Kannapolis was tapped to become home to a research and development for the biotech & pharmaceutical industry - the North Carolina Research Campus. They literally tore down the entire textile mill complex, and built state of the art research labs. While development has slowed a bit because of the economy, Kannapolis went from being a textile "company town"

Now... a number of the big universities (NC Chapel Hill, NC State, Duke, etc) all have branch labs at the NCRC, and NC is already home to "Research Triangle Park" in the Raleigh-Durham area. Of course, the Piedmont/Carolinian trains stop LITERALLY across the street from the NCRC, as well as the stops in Cary, Durham, and Raleigh. Thus, it is a viable option and could be just one of a number of smaller reasons why Kannapolis landed such a facility. Transportation options besides the interstate and fighting heavy city traffic.

-Eric



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/10 21:15 by sou2601.