Passenger Trains > seattle mud slides,and amtrak

i posted an item on here a few weeks ago about BNs policy of no amtrak trains for 48 hours after a mud slide,but they let freight trains go through with very dangerous tank cars on them.I got a copy of todays seattle times and see they had another derailment south of tacoma yesterday,and there were 4 tank cars leaking some VERY dangerous chemicals.and theyy said it could have producedan environmental catastrophe.it said when a fully loaded tankk car leaves the track,there are tremendous forces at play and potential for serious damage. had it been cars of liquid petroleum gas god help anyone living in the area when they blow up.this wasnt a mud slide,just the same no mater what causes it,it can be a disaster inm the making.they got lucky this time,but i still say there crazy for running those rolling bombs through mud slide areas when amtrak isnt allowed to for 48 hours.of course they never act till the body count reaches a certain point!

Sodium hydroxide is not a "rolling bomb". It's not even dangerous unless you touch it. (It's the active ingredient in Dran-O.)

This derailment would not make me any more worried about the consequences of a mud slide hitting a freight train than I was before. The consequences of a passenger train striking, or being struck by, a mud slide are still geometrically scarier.

Let's get those "rolling bombs" off the tracks and into 4 times as many trucks onto the very safe accident free hihgways.

vcrail Wrote:
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> Let's get those "rolling bombs" off the tracks and
> into 4 times as many trucks onto the very safe
> accident free highways.


I mentioned the concept of "risk management" to railrunner off list, but he doesn't want to hear it.

railrunner Wrote:
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> i still say there crazy for running those rolling
> bombs through mud slide areas when amtrak isnt
> allowed to for 48 hours.of course they never act
> till the body count reaches a certain point!


It's not just Amtrak. Sounder commuter trains are not allowed, either.

Nobody is being unfair to Amtrak. What BNSF wants is a body count of zero. And that is fine by me.

The articles I found on-line did not describe that hazard as strongly as the original post. Maybe there is a link to an article?

From what I read there was minimal leakage from one car, potential was a small area of water around the beach. If we assume everything going wrong all at the same time then we've got some serious problems. I'll check my Mayan calender to see if that's possible.

Is it just me, or is the otherwise interesting original post very difficult to read with its erratic capitalization, no spacing between sentences, and many typos. Posts on TO aren't texting. I'm sure the writer knows better but is just in a hurry? Just my two cents. Not meant to offend.

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> Is it just me, or is the otherwise interesting
> original post very difficult to read with its
> erratic capitalization, no spacing between
> sentences, and many typos. Posts on TO aren't
> texting. I'm sure the writer knows better but is
> just in a hurry? Just my two cents. Not meant to
> offend.

Right, you can be casual, not necessarily crossing every "T" and yet compose a readable post.


Bob

Sodium hydroxide "not dangerous unless you touch it" is hardly an accurate representation. A spilled tank car load is extremely dangerous and is a definite threat to everyone in the immediate area. As for drain cleaners, read the label. And if you are still not convinced, stick you head in the sink and take a deep breath. Ditto for oven cleaners that contain NaOH.

We seem to be getting off-track, so to speak:

Here's the Seattle Times two lead paragraphs that raise the alarm and then say it didn't happen that way anyways:

"Hazardous chemicals that spilled from a derailed freight train onto the banks of the Puget Sound on Saturday night could have produced an environmental catastrophe in Pierce County, according to a state Department of Ecology official.

But only 50 gallons of highly corrosive sodium hydroxide, or lye, hit the shore in University Place near Tacoma, Ron Holcomb, a state hazardous-materials specialist, said Sunday. Holcomb said the lye would be diluted as it comes in contact with water, and any damage to aquatic life would "probably not be obvious."

Link to the article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014348599_derail28m.html

In my opinion it is misleading and sensational, then it states in the second paragraph that the spilled material would be diluted when it goes into the water. Note that the experts remarks appear to be quoted out of a normal conversational sequence, ergo the reported or editor sensationalized the editing.

The fourth paragraph explains that each car contained 15,000 gallons each, never connecting their doomsday scenario in the same paragraph. No estimate of possible damage is made by the article, except to state that it would be a catastrophe. The writer goes on to point out that derailed cars are dangerous while they are in the process of derailing.

Definite Pulitzer material here. Maybe some people should be limited to 140 characters.

However, I definitely agree that it doesn't belong in the water or anywhere outside of the tank car.

korotaj Wrote:
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> Sodium hydroxide "not dangerous unless you touch
> it" is hardly an accurate representation. A
> spilled tank car load is extremely dangerous and
> is a definite threat to everyone in the immediate
> area. As for drain cleaners, read the label. And
> if you are still not convinced, stick you head in
> the sink and take a deep breath. Ditto for oven
> cleaners that contain NaOH.


Sodium hydroxide is not explosive or flammable, it's not a toxic inhalation hazard, and it's not a touch-it-and-die. No, you don't want to screw with it, and you don't want it to get loose. But Mr. Railrunner is going off here, apparently because he's upset about Amtrak trains getting held when hazmats are allowed to go through ("apparently" based on his previous posts on this subject, reinforced by this thread's presence on the Amtrak board instead of Western) and he needs a little bit more perspective on that. Even a derailed LPG car (or five) is not the same degree of danger or liability that BNSF would face if an occupied commuter or Amtrak train were to strike a mudslide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/11 18:35 by toledopatch.

Still think there could be a monitor (human or instrumented or both) or if need be geologist on site to walk thru trains at restricted speed to mitigate the problems these slipping spots create. stop check highball procedure, since these are reoccurring problems that shut down the corridor. Maybe instruments high up, all along the path that detect slippage, with a monitor at stop sign at the bottom, till a permanent solution can be worked out.

as for English and photography majors that think this board needs to be 100% edited for your English professor and every shot digitally corrected not in agreement. I admit a clearer picture and english do help convey the messages with out distraction some are posting from the field and or are pressed for time. I like to spell through thru cause that's how the grande spelled it.

Just don't pour any of that sodium hydroxide into any container of sulfuric acid -- or even a glass of lemon juice!

As I learned in high school chemistry class 45 years ago: "May his rest be long and placid. He added water to the acid. Another did what he had oughter. HE added acid to the water."

dan Wrote:
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> Still think there could be a monitor (human or
> instrumented or both) or if need be geologist on
> site to walk thru trains at restricted speed to
> mitigate the problems these slipping spots create.
> stop check highball procedure, since these are
> reoccurring problems that shut down the corridor.
> Maybe instruments high up, all along the path that
> detect slippage, with a monitor at stop sign at
> the bottom, till a permanent solution can be
> worked out.
>

In the problems areas of western Washington, if there is a mud slide in one place, it is a strong indicator that there may be problems in a bunch more places. Even if they could monitor that first slide and allow trains to tiptoe through, there are too many more miles of slide prone track that just isn't practical to monitor or issue slow orders for passenger trains. To put it simply, if there's one mud slide, expect another. Anyone who pays attention to BNSF in the Puget Sound area has watched them have multiple slides within a few hours or days, which is why the 48 hour moratorium makes plenty of safety common sense.

Also, in terms of the original comment, do we know that BNSF does not hold hazardous material shipments following slides? They could already be doing that, and it would be nearly impossible to tell from track side.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/11 00:35 by radar.