Passenger Trains > Washington Post: China's HSR Headed Off The Rails

“In China, we will have a debt crisis — a high-speed rail debt crisis,” he said. “I think it is more serious than your subprime mortgage crisis. You can always leave a house or use it. The rail system is there. It’s a burden. You must operate the rail system, and when you operate it, the cost is very high.”

1)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/are-chinas-high-speed-trains-heading-off-the-rails/2011/04/22/AFHzaNWE_story.html?hpid=z3

2)
And a second article in the opinion pages:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/chinas-train-wreck/2011/04/21/AFqjRWRE_story.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/11 04:14 by hazegray.

hazegray Wrote:
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> “In China, we will have a debt crisis — a
> high-speed rail debt crisis,” he said. “I
> think it is more serious than your subprime
> mortgage crisis. You can always leave a house or
> use it. The rail system is there. It’s a burden.
> You must operate the rail system, and when you
> operate it, the cost is very high.”
>
I think they're crying wolf. They built their system with, well, Chinese money, and given their world-leading progress in true high-speed railway construction, why stop now? Keep going. Connect Mongolia with the Yellow Sea, North Korea with Viet Nam. Cost, schmost, who cares? Don't wimp out on us high speed fans now.

billio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hazegray Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > “In China, we will have a debt crisis — a
> > high-speed rail debt crisis,” he said. “I
> > think it is more serious than your subprime
> > mortgage crisis. You can always leave a house
> or
> > use it. The rail system is there. It’s a
> burden.
> > You must operate the rail system, and when you
> > operate it, the cost is very high.”
> >
> I think they're crying wolf. They built their
> system with, well, Chinese money, and given their
> world-leading progress in true high-speed railway
> construction, why stop now? Keep going. Connect
> Mongolia with the Yellow Sea, North Korea with
> Viet Nam. Cost, schmost, who cares? Don't wimp
> out on us high speed fans now.

It's sad how some of our leaders fell for the Chinese HSR propaganda. The ex-governator of California spent considerable time "touring" Chinese HSR, where he should have spent more time in Japan where some of the technology originated. I'm convinced Obama Administration's HSR push was influenced and motivated by what China was doing, but that's just my opinion only. I'll refrain from sarcastic mockery, because the ridicule spans both sides of the Pacific.

The above quote by Zhao Jian comparing the submortgage crisis is comical and out of context: "You can always leave a house or use it." Hop from one government-provided housing to another? Like buying securities? Since when is it so easy here in the U.S.?

Sounds like maybe the Chinese better follow the American example of striving for more than one car per person. But then they don't love freedom like Americans do. I think it more likely the Washington Post is headed off the rails!

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2450436

The way I look at it, China is building a rail system we here in America can only dream of. The goal of the Washington Post is probably to divert attention away from America's last place standing in HSR by writing articles like this that say--see! China's HSR is not so hot--it cost money.

Looking at those China trains, I would say they're doing great; America looks awful in comparison.

Joe

A more apropos article from Washington post may have been to discuss how we get ourselves out of the hole that we placed ourselves into regarding our much vaunted highway system and its upkeep, and compare it with the whole that the Chinese are digging themselves into regarding their explosive growth of highway infrastructure, irrespective of their HSR systems. There is a fond belief in this country that highways, once built, don;t need any money anymore. They just run forever. Well meaning people seriously ask why tolls need to be collected once the construction bonds are payed off. Too many people believe in tooth fairies even in their mature age.

The point that gets missed in these partisan bickering is that what we need is a good integrated transport system where appropriate technology is used in appropriate places, rather than going whole hog for one or the other, which we seem to think is the right thing to do somehow.

Jishnu.

If China's goal is to "modernize", I would think that high speed rail lines are a far more logical approach than building super highways. If the "average" Chinese citizen is having trouble affording tickets for a train ride, only an idiot would make the argument that they could afford to purchase a new car anytime soon. It may be true that the government took the step toward massive development of high speed rail too soon. If that's accurate, they are doing the right thing by admitting the error and taking the step of slowing some of the trains, effectively creating moderately higher speed rail that may be more affordable over the near future. Perhaps they will even run older trainsets on the lines, with lower costs to passengers. The fact that they built the infrastructure is probably a good thing over the long run. It's the lack of balance in their planning that seems to be the issue.

Many projects do not always "work" right away. They need adjustments time etc

But............

You have 1.00 to "Invest". So I say, fine, give me your dollar, I'll invest it for you but you have to give .20 cents a year back. So you say 'why do I have to pay you .20, I gave you the dollar."

So I say, well that is how socialism, works, you earn a dollar and give it to me, I invest it and then you give me a another .20 a year. "well why should I continue to work, if you are going keep taking my money. "Don't worry,it is for the greater good of the state."

You only have HSR, that is ok, the economy can handle it. Now you want have an ethanol plant. Ok, I'll build a plant but no one will buy the product. No problem, for every gallon you make, we will give .25. Ok, I'll build as many plants as i can but then there will be too much. don't worry, we will just require increased content.

Well I'd like to build windmills, but I can't compete with coal plants. Build the plants, and we will make the utilities buy it. But I'll still lose money. Well we will put the squeeze on the coal producers and drive up the price of energy till you make money.

Hey, I'd like to build electric cars but they cost too much, they start fires, use coal produced electricity.
Don't worry, we .....................

Bob

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The way I look at it, China is building a rail
> system we here in America can only dream of. The
> goal of the Washington Post is probably to divert
> attention away from America's last place standing
> in HSR by writing articles like this that
> say--see! China's HSR is not so hot--it cost
> money.
>
> Looking at those China trains, I would say they're
> doing great; America looks awful in comparison.
>
> Joe

I'll reserve judgement on what China's doing with their rail infrastructure, but as brought up by many others in the other thread, overbuilding is not limited to political or economic systems we disagree with, everyone does it, whether I agree with it or not.

One thing I learned, we should be minding our own business and focus on fixing our own problems. The concept of highlighting or cricitizing other countries to distract us is obsolete. Washington Post (and the politicians in the Beltway) need to keep their mouths shut, Get a Clue, and read the insightful comments here on Trainorders more often.

To cchan006:

I agree with you. Whenever the Media discusses HSR (or regular rail, for that matter), they are usually "spinning" their view.

It doesn't matter if it's the Washington Post, Fox News, or MSNBC. They are all playing the "Political Game". This is what we rail supporters must learn to prefect also.

The 2012 Budget season is coming up, and I hope rail supporters in Congress do a better job of playing the Political Game this time, and eek out a Billion or two for Rail.

Joe

I get tired of these anti-China articles and posts in general around here. Why does it matter in the least to anyone in the US what China is doing with its money? As stated by a few other posters these articles and threads are just around to make people feel better that we don't have shinny new things in the US.

China's HSR system is having problems? Are we surprised? We should not be considering on our own history of building rail systems.

The Transcontinental Railroad (now Union Pacific) was build with taxpayer dollars in the middle of a war. It was fraught with greed and incompetence from the start. It's first 25 miles between Council Bluffs and Elkhorn, sensibly engineered in a straight line over the flat Nebraska prairies was actually built in a half-circle (the shortest distance between two points might be a straight line but the most remunerative, in the case, was a partial circle) in order to collect more tax-payer subsidy which was allocated on a per-finished-mile basis to UP. Across the continent Central Pacific was not to be outdone. It informed Congress that the Sierra Nevada Mountains started at Aracade Creek (in Sacramento), 21 miles west of the actual beginning of where mountain railroad construction began. This allowed Central Pacific (later Southern Pacific then UP) to pocket the difference in taxpayer money between smaller subsidies for construction in the flat Central Valley and construction in mountainous territory. Then, of course, there was the Credit Mobilier scandal. Which allowed UP big-wigs to enrich themselves with tax dollars like hogs at feeding time.

Yes, eventually the-on the-books subsidies were eventually re-paid to the US Treasury. How much of the stolen , wasted money was repaid? Not much I'm sure. We'll never really know.

But wait, there's more. I recommend "Empire Express" by David Haward Bain (Viking Press) for detailed reading on the larcenous foundations of UP and SP.

Let us not forget the building of BART. Over budget and behind schedule the whole way. It had to go thru any number of after-the-fact redesigns of it's 'space-age" control system and disrupted the lives of the denizens of the Bay Area for years beyond it's promised completion date.

So, the Chinese HSR is suffering birthing pangs. I guess they'll just have to work them out just like SP, UP and BART did. Those systems are up and running today. If we had known of the angst and waste we would have had to go thru prior to building them should we had done so nonetheless?

Interesting question.

Hopefully we will learn the lessons of SP, UP, BART and The Chinese HSR when we get around to building our own.

John Webb
Trinidad, CA

Winnemucca Wrote:
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> Hopefully we will learn the lessons of SP, UP,
> BART and The Chinese HSR when we get around to
> building our own.

We can agree on that. But that is why we discuss these things - right? <G>

chessierr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get tired of these anti-China articles and posts
> in general around here. Why does it matter in the
> least to anyone in the US what China is doing with
> its money? As stated by a few other posters these
> articles and threads are just around to make
> people feel better that we don't have shinny new
> things in the US.

Well first we are in a global economy but besides that, China was held out as the model.
I never held China as a model but others have, so I think it is entirely fair game to say, hey, wait minute, is that model working?

OT, listening to debate about Canada's upcoming elections and guess what, upcoming health care crisis was a main discussion. Well, how can that be, I thought Canada was this health care Utopia. Personally, I love Canada, and how they solve their problems is their business but if people hold them out as the model and then............... I think it is fair to question not what they are doing but the argument that this is the model we should follow.

Bob

So the great China HSR system loses money! California's is to make a big profit.
How so?

stash Wrote:
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> So the great China HSR system loses money!
> California's is to make a big profit.
> How so?


According to this LA Times link,over 70% of Californians polled supported a cap on public employee pensions and benefits... maybe that will make the $$$ available for HSR.
:-)


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-poll-pensions-20110425,0,2397255.story

Its worth noting (though nobody does) that China is also building roads, and lots of them, including freeways. It isn't all HSR. They are doing HSR, and I suspect MSR (Medium Speed Rail) for the longer-distance connections. Oh, and they are building airports. For the really long distance connections.

I was over there for a couple of weeks some years back. I was really delighted by the way things were working. It reminded me of the 1960s in the USA. They had roads that woudl go along for a while and then stop, because it wasn't finished yet. But instead of suing, people just got off the unfinished freeway and drove on surface streets for a while until they came to the next end of an unfinished freeway going in the direction they wanted. Then they used that until they got where they were going or it ended.

Nobody seemed upset that everything wasn't finished and perfect. In fact talking to people, they seemed to be quite happy and even proud that things weren't finished yet. They seemed to believe that unfinished stuff indicated that their lives were getting better than they had been in the past, and that they could see the improvements happening, rather than see unscruplous construction billionares getting rich at their expense with unfinished public works. What a strange attitude. Just like 1960s America, back when we still thought there was a future rather than an endless perfect present.

Heck, when you drove thru town, or even the suburbs, almost every commercial building had HUGE neon signs on the side of the building, often animated. These weren't little things. On a factory it wasn't unusual to have a 2-story high sign the full length of the factory building. I asked for translations on many of these signs. They said things like "Acme motor works" or "Jim's bearing factory" or "Foot massage" (a really big thing there). It was almost as if the owners of production plants were PROUD of the fact they were making things that people could use. And if you asked people if they were upset about all that neon advertizing stuff, they just looked at you funny and asked "why? why should we be?" It was clear that they didn't understand that pride and advertizing for goods was bad.

Just like the 1960s in America.