Passenger Trains > California high speed rail --might-- get the green ligh

Several influential lawmakers, including Governor Jerry Brown and Democratic leader Darrell Steinberg, believe a vote to begin construction of the high speed railroad in the central valley will happen this week. This plan includes 130 miles of new HSR in the Central Valley, plus a billion to electrify the Peninsula route and a similar amount for Los Angeles area and other connecting city transit.

LA Times...

>>

"We are close. It’s a tight vote," Steinberg said, later adding, "We’re working to get the votes."

Steinberg said lawmakers will vote on $5.8 billion for the Central Valley track -- $2.6 billion from state bonds and $3.2 billion in federal funds. Another $815 million would help local transit systems connect to high-speed rail in Southern and Northern California.<<

The article goes on to note that Nancy Pelosi and members of the Obama administration have been pressuring (their words) California legislators to approve the spending. In recent days, the dysfunctional California legislature failed to approve pension plan changes, and has failed to address legislation related to the bankruptcy of California towns. A third town in three months, Mammoth Lakes, has filed for bankruptcy following Stockton's filing.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2012/07/high-speed-rail-funding-poised-for-approval.html

Ok, lets get this straight. Towns are declaring bankruptcy but yet Gov. Brown wants to spend money on HSR. Unbelievable.

For the record, Mammoth's bankruptcy didn't really have to do with day-to-day budget issues. It was the result of the loss of a big lawsuit that left the municipality with a huge judgement against it that it couldn't pay. Not quite the same as Stockton's fiscal woes.

If you can see the botton of a cities cash drawer, does it matter why it is empty?? California cannot afford a pork barrel extravaganza like High Speed Rail.

Norm

As the Monkey said as he pee'd into the
cash register..this is going to run into money...

HSR will "CREATE" jobs in California--not lose them (as outsourcing to China dose).

But, if you're not that interested in California jobs, you might want to consider the wealth and profits that HSR will recreate for a lot of corporations, such as surveyors; construction companies; steel companies; equipment manufacturers; and on and on.

Also, a lot of the start up money (something like $8B, I believe) is a pure gift to California from the Stimulus bill (not to mention a couple of billion of Florida money).

It makes more sence to start looking at the benefits of HSR instead of obsessing on just the costs. If the rest of the world can do it--but we can't; then there is something wrong with us...which, I feel, is precisely this thinking that says America can't do big construction projects anymore.

Joe

Gift! I love the idea of increasing our rails we have to start someday but who pays for the gift?

Roger L. Routzon
Medina, OH

Shayno6 Wrote:
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> Gift! I love the idea of increasing our rails we
> have to start someday but who pays for the gift?

Floridajoe???

Paying people to count individual blades of grass in the park will
also CREATE jobs. The difference there, is once they are done
counting the blades, it will no longer COST any additional money
for the state nor Federal government.

I'm all for HSR, but, Joe, you gotta come up with a better argument.

/Mitch

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
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> HSR will "CREATE" jobs in California--not lose
> them (as outsourcing to China dose).
>
> But, if you're not that interested in California
> jobs, you might want to consider the wealth and
> profits that HSR will recreate for a lot of
> corporations, such as surveyors; construction
> companies; steel companies; equipment
> manufacturers; and on and on.
>
> Also, a lot of the start up money (something like
> $8B, I believe) is a pure gift to California from
> the Stimulus bill (not to mention a couple of
> billion of Florida money).
>
> It makes more sence to start looking at the
> benefits of HSR instead of obsessing on just the
> costs. If the rest of the world can do it--but we
> can't; then there is something wrong with
> us...which, I feel, is precisely this thinking
> that says America can't do big construction
> projects anymore.
>
> Joe

As mentioned by me in another thread, Jerry Brown spent time living in Japan after leaving politics almost 2 decades ago. If he's addicted to HSR after riding the Shinkansens there, I don't blame him. Best way to travel, better than air, better than car or bus, although in Japan, those modes of travel are not mutually exclusive, but coexist nicely, but idiologues (not misspelled) like Randall O'Toole won't get it. I'm sure the opponents of HSR wants to make sure such addictions do not "infect" the California populace. Just ask ProAmtrak's opinions on what happened to HSR projects in other states.

It's been 4 years since Prop 1A was voted on, and they are STILL talking about raising money? Forget "can't afford it," this is utterly pathetic. I don't know embarassing is even the right word.

As for jobs, "creating" is overrated, and at best, HSR will prevent job losses in the industries you mentioned above. We don't have a domestic corporation specializing in manufacturing sophisticated passenger rail equipment. Not sure if GE really counts. Without that, who's going to lobby and pester the politicians to keep this project going?

It seems the jobs that will be "created" will be merely using the labor available here, and not much more. As for the consultants, they are going to tell Siemens, Kawasaki, Hitachi, Alstom, Bombardier, and other foreign megacorporations how to do what they already know how to do better than any of us? (laugh)

And nope, I'm not an opponent of passenger rail or HSR. I'm not sure if I should admit being an opponent of anything anymore.

Much of the Bankruptcies and Foreclosures are founded in bad contracts or simply bad business. Something has to be done to roll them up and get rid of the grief. The HSR Kool-aid had a pretty ugly run, sure wish they had a HSR lite that simply connected the two large regions of California with a timely form of rail transport. Find a name for it latter.

Interesting that the early HSR mania included so much let's be just like Europe, or they have so we should have it. Parts of Europe are in major Financial trouble, but also still trying to milk it for all it's worth. They may have a better way of life but it doesn't always include work. Germany still seems to have a solid economy and way of life, I guess we'll have to wait it out and see what happens.

Generous public employee pension programs are unsustainable. That issue needs to be addressed before adding massive numbers of employees to the public roster to build and operate HSR.

I for one believe it's a big MIGHT in my opinion! This charade is getting older than dirt!

Cost aside, both the 2008 Prop 1A and the Federal Grant were specific on their use on HSR. These "money" won't be transfer to other programs if it was decided not to fund HSR, it would just be "not there" i.e. bonds not sold, Federal deficient went down by less than 1%....

Again, cost of doing nothing is not zero, and government debt is different from personal debt, just think government debt as "credit" rating to other countries and to its citizens. The reason US Bonds continue to be in high demand is the US "credit" rating was pretty good, i.e. US always pay back its debt. Case to the point, does anyone ever wonder where did the money came from during WWII to fund all those fighters, bombers, aircraft carriers, nuclear program, etc...?

I do think HSR deserved funding more than other intercity/communter rail program because by the examples of other countries, it has the best chance of making operational profit, i.e. doesn't need operational subsidy when Bay-to-Baisn is completed. The quicker this can be accomplished the less bond interest needed to come off government budget, so the focus should be on completing the main line faster.

They appear to re-defining 'HSR' and moving the money around. CalTrain electrification doesn't make it HSR, if HSR slow speeds into SF it does need the electrification.

TCnR Wrote:
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> They appear to re-defining 'HSR' and moving the
> money around. CalTrain electrification doesn't
> make it HSR, if HSR slow speeds into SF it does
> need the electrification.

No, Caltrain Electrification is part of CAHSR, as CAHSR will use Caltrain tracks to reach San Francisco.

CAHSR will require huge operating subsidies forever, just
like Amtrak's NEC, Japan, and every other country in the world.
Less than 5% of the population will use it on a regular basis, and
they will expect a cheap ticket, say $50 SF to LA, when the real
cost is probably $1500. In the "true spirit of socialism" the
difference is picked up by the other 95% and of course, the
federal government which only has to print a little more.

It's just one more case of a few people wanting something they
don't really need, and certainly don't want to pay for. To make
it fly they just have to pedal a few lies about the economy,
job creation, and the environment, to the unenlightened 95%
and a few stupid politicians.

jbaker Wrote:
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> CAHSR will require huge operating subsidies
> forever, just
> like Amtrak's NEC, Japan,

So did you take the time to read JR East's and JR West's financial reports before you made that claim? They are public companies (with stocks traded) and release financial reports annually. I have posted the link to JR East's report here on TO before.

Seems the claim that passenger rail is "socialist" is limited by national boundaries. Not very universal, and very limited in scope.

That doesn't change the fact that CA HSR is still going down the path of failure, so I'm not totally disagreeing with what you are saying, if you can handle a person having more than one "idealogical" positions.

The proposal that the CAHSR will use the Peninsula route through Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc stipulated that the current route would be grade separated. Has anyone seen how the proposed billion for electrification interacts with raising or depressing the existing rail alignment?

I can't imagine the NIMBY billionaires along the coast and into Silicon Valley will lay down and take this intrusion on their turf without a (huge) fight.

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paying people to count individual blades of grass
> in the park will
> also CREATE jobs. The difference there, is once
> they are done
> counting the blades, it will no longer COST any
> additional money
> for the state nor Federal government.
>
> I'm all for HSR, but, Joe, you gotta come up with
> a better argument.
>
> /Mitch

Well...counting blades of grass, unlike HSR, is not creating a value added service. So, it is a false comparison. Building HSR creates a service that has monetary value, unlike knowing the exact number of grass blades on a lawn.