Passenger Trains > What is wrong with the EXPO line in SoCal

Channel 5 news said that a problem with the Expo line could lead to a "deadly" crash! What is this all about?

The usual hype the media loves when
it's a slow news day.....

It has to do with a problem with the turnout at the junction with the Blue Line (just south of the 10 freeway). Temporary fixes have been tried, and I believe it is a low speed junction.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/20/local/la-me-expo-safety-20120518



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/12 19:01 by PasadenaSub.

It's a slow speed junction, but the CPUC has ordered the MTA to make repairs that MTA says it doesn't need.
The Expo line cars go straight through this junction while the Blue Line cars make a 90 degree turn here to go down Washington Blvd.
I didn't see or feel anything wrong today when I rode the Expo Line out to Culver City and back.

I think the California PUC had two directives, one for the track at the junction between the Blue and the Expo lines at Flower and Washington Streets, and one for the train control system. A failure of the track could result in a low speed derailment, but I don't know any details of the train control system. Expo and Blue line trains run through a moderately fast underground section for a few blocks, it needs to be done right, although I don't know why a simple block system would not function. The junction is so slow it should be "yard limits", don't run into a train that is already there.

This is not a "slow news day" story - it's been in the Times for weeks...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

Has anyone been able to photograph the "modification" made to make the line safe?

TomPlatten Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone been able to photograph the
> "modification" made to make the line safe?

I looked for it today and didn't see anything different.
Of course it's entirely possible I missed it too.

I think the modification is fairly subtle and one would have to get in the path of oncoming light rail cars to see or photograph it. From what I have read, it appears that the defect affects trains diverging to the Blue Line track on Washington Blvd. It has no bearing (literally or figuratively) on trains heading straight through to Expo.

railstiesballast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the California PUC had two directives, one
> for the track at the junction between the Blue and
> the Expo lines at Flower and Washington Streets,
> and one for the train control system.

> but I don't know any details of the
> train control system.

From what I have read, the some light rail vehicles are having problems communicating with the train control system (I don't know the exact details) causing the automatic fail safe to engage. From what the MTA has said, there is no danger as the safety system is wrong and they are correcting the problem. It appears the problem is intermettiate and thus hard to diagnose.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a slow speed junction, but the CPUC has
> ordered the MTA to make repairs that MTA says it
> doesn't need.
> The Expo line cars go straight through this
> junction while the Blue Line cars make a 90
> degree turn here to go down Washington Blvd.
> I didn't see or feel anything wrong today when I
> rode the Expo Line out to Culver City and back.


Even before the expo portion came to be.

That has always be a slow speed turn. Ever since the blue line
opened up for service.

Jerry Martin
Los Angeles, CA
Central Coast Railroad Festival

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I didn't see or feel anything wrong today when I
> rode the Expo Line out to Culver City and back.


Try Diverging southbound on the Blue Line, thats where the "fun" is. Pre "fix", at 5MPH you could feel each flange slam into the guard rail outside the frog (I have not been thru it since), wear on the outside of the wheels confirmed this...

railstiesballast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Expo and Blue line trains
> run through a moderately fast underground section
> for a few blocks, it needs to be done right,
> although I don't know why a simple block system
> would not function.

Its not a simple "block" system, unfortunately. They upgraded this area to a coded track circuit w/ cab signals. The issue, is that the interlocking trackwork is so complicated, the ROC (Rail Control Center) was constantly getting false occupancies, and unable to line the plant (this has been an issue since day one). So they have had to turn off the Cab Signals, and operate on Wayside Signals. "Wayside Only" is a normal signaling practice outside MTA, however it does not enforce a positive stop, or civil speed restrictions. This is considered a big deal to both MTA and the CPUC.



railstiesballast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Expo and Blue line trains
> run through a moderately fast underground section
> for a few blocks, it needs to be done right,

Although the Blue Line always had a slow turn at this location, the idea that this complicated interlocking could fit at this location (and work) was bit optimistic. Unfortunately it's too late to "do it right" at this point, and I have no idea how MTA will address the long term issues without redesigning the entire junction.

In Cleveland, OH, the Shaker Heights "Rapid" line has had just such a junction east of Shaker Square since 1920. Yes there have been a few "oops" moments, but the junction is alive and well today so they still know how to make "em!

This is probably the location under discussion.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=34.033998,-118.270534&spn=0.001536,0.00146&t=h&z=20

ats90mph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I didn't see or feel anything wrong today when
> I
> > rode the Expo Line out to Culver City and back.
>
>
> Try Diverging southbound on the Blue Line, thats
> where the "fun" is. Pre "fix", at 5MPH you could
> feel each flange slam into the guard rail outside
> the frog (I have not been thru it since), wear on
> the outside of the wheels confirmed this...
>
> railstiesballast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >Expo and Blue line trains
> > run through a moderately fast underground
> section
> > for a few blocks, it needs to be done right,
> > although I don't know why a simple block system
> > would not function.
>
> Its not a simple "block" system, unfortunately.
> They upgraded this area to a coded track circuit
> w/ cab signals. The issue, is that the
> interlocking trackwork is so complicated, the ROC
> (Rail Control Center) was constantly getting false
> occupancies, and unable to line the plant (this
> has been an issue since day one). So they have
> had to turn off the Cab Signals, and operate on
> Wayside Signals. "Wayside Only" is a normal
> signaling practice outside MTA, however it does
> not enforce a positive stop, or civil speed
> restrictions. This is considered a big deal to
> both MTA and the CPUC.
>
>
>
> railstiesballast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Expo and Blue line trains
> > run through a moderately fast underground
> section
> > for a few blocks, it needs to be done right,
>
> Although the Blue Line always had a slow turn at
> this location, the idea that this complicated
> interlocking could fit at this location (and work)
> was bit optimistic. Unfortunately it's too late
> to "do it right" at this point, and I have no idea
> how MTA will address the long term issues without
> redesigning the entire junction.


The Blue Line cars. Have always been slow taking turns.
Not just at the Washington and Flower. But at Washington
Long Beach. and in Downtown Long Beach. The Blue Line makes
each turn real slow. And has been doing it since it opened for
service. On a rare occision. an Operator will go a little faster
around a turn. But after the lead end has made it through.

Jerry Martin
Los Angeles, CA
Central Coast Railroad Festival

An article from the last few weeks probably the times. A frog needs to be replaced and that welding a fix twice didn't work.

GP25 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The Blue Line cars. Have always been slow taking
> turns.
> Not just at the Washington and Flower. But at
> Washington
> Long Beach. and in Downtown Long Beach. The Blue
> Line makes
> each turn real slow. And has been doing it since
> it opened for
> service. On a rare occision. an Operator will go a
> little faster
> around a turn. But after the lead end has made it
> through.

Yes, but they did not have five, shallow angle frogs to contend with previously...

stone23 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Cleveland, OH, the Shaker Heights "Rapid" line
> has had just such a junction east of Shaker Square
> since 1920. Yes there have been a few "oops"
> moments, but the junction is alive and well today
> so they still know how to make "em!


Good example...

You can see where they widened the track centers to have a more acute angle for the diamond...

http://goo.gl/maps/bOSWW

The same can be done at Washington and Flower by having the southbound Blue Line track track diverge to the right, swing out across Flower St, then head to the left...

When KNBC channel 4 aired this story, the showed METROLINK trains.