Passenger Trains > Late Trains 371, Amtrak's answer: issue an advisory

We have already done sufficient documentation here on TO, showing that
even a few-minutes EARLY arrival of Train 370 at Grand Rapids is not
sufficient to get Train 371 out on time.

Train 370 arrives Grand Rapids at 1020pm. Train 371 departs Grand
Rapids at 735am.

Allow time to yard the train and secure it according to rules, to file necessary
paperwork, to go off duty...get eight hours' rest...and in the morning to sign in,
do a mandatory safety briefing, to get the train from the yard and ready for the
trip, to get the paperwork from CSX and from Amtrak.

There just isn't enough time.

Amtrak is saying they're short of people and can't recrew 371
enroute. Ergo, the mandatory 8-hr rest at Grand Rapids (the eight hours could be
shortened but then the crew cannot work all the way to CHI before running out on
hours of service). Can't get around that without six-figure fines from the FRA,
and a lot of trouble for Amtrak. Amtrak claims to be short on management people,
too...a result of Boardman's December buyout plan. The Road Foreman on the
CSX portion of the Pere Marquette isn't qualified to qualify engineers; she is an
Amtrak new hire...reported to have worked 4 trips and was promoted. Now Amtrak has
brought out a former engineer from the territory who is an Asst. Supt. in Chicago.
He got a ride from CSX, and the word is that CSX has blessed him to qualify Amtrak
engineers.

So maybe there's a glimmer of hope before the Fall schedule change.

Meanwhile, Amtrak has issued an advisory that is worded so as to throw
NS and CSX under the bus for the delays, even though a perfect run for
370 won't get 371 out on time:


> Pere Marquette Train 371: Temporary Delays from Grand Rapids to Chicago
>
> Effective through October 31, 2012

> Train 371, which operates over tracks owned by CSX Transportation
> and Norfolk Southern Railway, has been experiencing delays of up to
> 60 minutes due to freight train interference, speed restrictions
> imposed by the host railroads and other operating conditions.
>
> We are working to reduce delays whenever possible and provide our
> passengers with more reliable service. On certain days, the train
> may operate according to the published schedule, or with minimal
> delays.
>
> Passengers should plan for the possibility of a delay, and contact
> Amtrak before heading to the station.
>
> The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on
> Amtrak.com, our free iPhone app and at 1-800-USA-RAIL
> (1-800-872-7245).
>
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage
> and apologize for any inconvenience.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/12 17:47 by GenePoon.

Amtrak refuses to hire enough crews to handle the trains they run, especially in the Midwestern crew bases. They are chronically short, crews stressed out and over worked, and fatigued. Amtrak is scared they may have to pay the extra board guarantee 4 or 5 weeks out of the year, and would rather work the board to death and pay OT to crew working off their regular jobs to cover vacant jobs the other 48 weeks a year.

And here, Amtrak management does something they have become great at...passing the buck. In this case blaming CSX and NS who do a decent job getting the train over the road. The CSX portion from Porter to GRR sees almost no traffic. As Gene stated, even if the train is on time into GRR the crew cannot get rested and work back in 12 hours even with a 4 hour cut. Chicago is very short handed. There was talk of making GRR a Battle Creek satellite crew base, but this is unlikely. Best we can hope for is a schedule change that better reflects the reality of the crew situation this Fall.

Amtrak is short handed because it is underfunded. Nothing much more can be said about this crew situation.

If Amtrak is blaming the freight railroads for delays, they can back it up with the data they publish every month in their "Monthly Report. It's there for everyone to see.

Does anyone believe that Congress will increase Amtrak funding so that they can hire more crews? Not a chance! So, why complain about Train 371's crew problem? The reason (or blame) for this train's troubles lies in the lap of Congress--not Amtrak, which simply doesn't have enough money to make progress.

Joe

This train is funded by the State of Michigan, so can't blame federal funding for this. The State paid Amtrak to run the train and staff it. If they cannot/will not, then they should get someone else to run it. They hire plenty of crews for their precious NEC trains, with 2-4 conductors for each train.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/12 06:53 by cashfare.

cashfare:

If you're saying that Amtrak HAS sufficient funding from Michigan to hire more crews for this train; but, is simply refusing to do it, then I agree that Amtrak deserves a black eye for this.

Are we sure this is what Amtrak is doing? The Michigan DOT would have to be very lax to permit such a thing, unless they agree with it.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/12 07:10 by floridajoe2001.

Floridajoe, do you accept or refute Gene Poon's description at the top that the crew doesn't have sufficient time to get 8 hours of rest in Grand Rapids so that it's fully rested for the return to Chicago?

This train has operated for several years without all of these recent problems. Has something changed recently? Has the sign-off and/or sign-up procedure at Grand Rapids changed, so that the crew can't get its 8 hours of rest? And, if Amtrak is short of crews in Chicago and can't recrew Train 371 every morning - why would anyone design a schedule which needs recrewing near a train's destination? - what is the fix?

And please don't blame Michigan. Michigan is the agency, Michigan is the "checkbook" that has hired Amtrak to operate the train. Amtrak is professional enough to have budgeted for one crew to make a round-trip from Chicago to Grand Rapids and return, and you can bet that Amtrak didn't budget for a recrew each morning. Something in the operating plan has changed so that the one crew can't make the round-trip, and it appears that Amtrak and Michigan haven't gotten together to work out a plan for how to adjust to this new reality.

We have seen with the arrival times at Grand Rapids that NS and CSX have been able to deliver Train 370 to Grand Rapids on-time, and Amtrak can't get Train 371 to depart on-time. That makes Amtrak's passenger advisory pretty unpalatable, and I have to believe that NS and CSX aren't happy about being thrown under the bus, as others have described it.

No, Floridajoe, this particular case doesn't have anything to do with Amtrak being underfunded by Congress. Please save that excuse for a time when it actually applies.

With relatives between Holland and Grand Rapids, I ride that train 3-4 times per year and have experienced delays on 371 more often than not for a looooong time. The reasons documented here are accurate. I have always wondered why the GRR departure couldn't be delayed until 8:45 a.m. or 9:00. Arrival in CHI would be noonish instead of 10:30-10:45. That would allow the necessary crew rest and passengers could still spend the afternoon in the big city or make an afternoon flight out of Midway or O'Hare (as I do). Am I missing something here?

-John

again, what has changed in recent months for this to become a problem?

knotch8:

I crunched some numbers from Amtrak's June "Monthly Report" to see what I could find out about the Pere Marquette, and whether Amtrak is really deserving of any blame. You can verify them yourself if you want to put yourself through the drudgery; but a word of warning-you have to compile the data from several data tables. I did the best I could. I tried to be accurate. Here's what I found out:

. It is true that trains in Michigan, as a whole, have a poor On Time record compared with other short haul corridors. For the 1st. 9 Months of 2012, Michigan trains had End Point O.T. arrivals of 50.1% compared with 83.3% O.T. for all of the short haul trains.

. Amtrak shows only the current month's delays (June); for which it blames itself for only 3.9% of the delay in Michigan; broken down as follows:

Passenger holds----------18%
All crew related delay---16%
Engine Failure------------9%
"All Else"---------------57%

. Since Amtrak says it caused 3.9% of the delays in June; the other 96.1% I can only assume were assigned to the two freight railroads handling Michigan trains (CSX & NS). Amtrak assignes the delay to each "Host Railroad" as follows:
-- 72% caused by NS (of which 56% due to freight train interference; and 44% by signal delays)
-- 28% caused by CSX (of which 58% due to slow orders; and 42% by signal delays)

. Getting specific by train, the End Point O.T. arrival of all three Michigan services (for 1st 9 months) is as follows:
--Blue Water.........72.2%
--Pere Marquette... 53.6%
--Chicago-Detroit... 41.5%

To sum up, because Amtrak does not set out crew delays specifically for the Pere Marquette; but rather gives them for the TOTAL State of Michigan as a whole; the best we can say is--Amtrak itself causes very little delay (3.9%) to Michigan trains; and of this small total, only 16% is caused by crew related issues. So, it seems that crew problems are not a hugh issue--freight train interference mainly on the NS is the major cause--at least in June.

Joe

PS. ridership on the Pere Marquette is up +3.8% for the 1st.9months; and revenue is up +3.5% So, the crew problem Gene is calling our attention to isn't hurtling things for this train.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/12 16:31 by floridajoe2001.

jcaestecker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With relatives between Holland and Grand Rapids, I
> ride that train 3-4 times per year and have
> experienced delays on 371 more often than not for
> a looooong time. The reasons documented here are
> accurate. I have always wondered why the GRR
> departure couldn't be delayed until 8:45 a.m. or
> 9:00. Arrival in CHI would be noonish instead of
> 10:30-10:45. That would allow the necessary crew
> rest and passengers could still spend the
> afternoon in the big city or make an afternoon
> flight out of Midway or O'Hare (as I do). Am I
> missing something here?
>
> -John

Thanks for that traveler's perspective. Have you also experienced on time arrivals on 370?

It seems like there are several separate issues interwoven here:

1) Has 370 begun arriving late more often than it has in the past? (that would point toward delays over the road)

2) Has the procedure for going off duty changed in recent months? (that points toward a delay in going on crew rest)

3) Have the procedures or companies servicing the train changed? (that points toward an issue with cleaning, fueling, pumping toilets, etc)

The_Chief_Way Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> again, what has changed in recent months for this
> to become a problem?


A new policy, of no enroute recrewing of the train except under emergency circumstances. Previously
the crew's rest could be cut short to get the train out on time, but they then could not work all the
way to Chicago. They would be relieved enroute with no delay (the situation was known at departure
so there was plenty of time to arrange the recrew) and all was well. Under the new policy Amtrak has
decided that the crew gets eight hours even if the train has to depart Grand Rapids late (though in
at least one case of an excessive multi-hour delay, they changed their mind).

As we have already discussed, even if there is NO delay to the train, it is not physically possible for
the crew to do everything they have to, get eight hours rest and get 371 out on time. No amount of
claimed number-crunching of Amtrak-provided statistics to pin the problem on the freight railroads
can change that.

So since it is a policy change by Amtrak, it IS a problem that Amtrak imposed upon itself. They
could have waited until the Fall schedule change when the Federally-mandated crew rest could be
incorporated into the schedule. Amtrak claims internally that there are not sufficient qualified
crews to recrew enroute. That is also a condition they have imposed upon themselves.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/12 20:12 by GenePoon.

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> knotch8:
>
> I crunched some numbers from Amtrak's June "Monthly Report"...


That's the problem with your analysis right there, Joe.

The problem with late departures for Train 371 wasn't occurring in June.

Then why did you blast the RFE that is qualified all over MI except GRR to Porter?

To: Gene Poon

I can't deny that all Michigan trains are poor time keepers, and this applies likewise to the Pere Marquette, and train 371 which you highlight.

"Number crunching" does disprove the claim that it is totally impossible to turn train 371 at Grand Rapids and depart on time. For example, it departed on time August 9, 10, and only 10" late on Aug 18.

Also, it's hard to deny that delays to Michigan trains is overwhelming caused by the NS and CSX. Amtrak publishes data which shows this plainly; and to my knowledge, the freight railroads have not denied it. Therefore, I see no reason to deny this either, and blame Amtrak.

Anyway, I'm sure a lot of the End-Point (Chicago) delay of train 371 is caused by the NS freight congestion between Porter and Chicago; especially that X-Rock Island crossing in Inglewood, which the new fly-over, now under construction, will fix.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/12 05:53 by floridajoe2001.

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To: Gene Poon
>
> I can't deny that all Michigan trains are poor
> time keepers, and this applies likewise to the
> Pere Marquette, and train 371 which you
> highlight.
>
> "Number crunching" does disprove the claim that it
> is totally impossible to turn train 371 at Grand
> Rapids and depart on time. For example, it
> departed on time August 9, 10, and only 10" late
> on Aug 18.
>
> Also, it's hard to deny that delays to Michigan
> trains is overwhelming caused by the NS and CSX.
> Amtrak publishes data which shows this plainly;
> and to my knowledge, the freight railroads have
> not denied it. Therefore, I see no reason to deny
> this either, and blame Amtrak.
>
> Anyway, I'm sure a lot of the End-Point (Chicago)
> delay of train 371 is caused by the NS freight
> congestion between Porter and Chicago; especially
> that X-Rock Island crossing in Inglewood, which
> the new fly-over, now under construction, will
> fix.
>
> Joe


But, how about the contention that even when the train arrives EARLY, the 371 turn can't get out on time?

That would suggest delays to the outbound train aren't the problem.

Why do we assume that Amtrak's categorization of delay causes is 100% accurate. Is there a remote possibility that Amtrak would error to the side of making the freight RR's look bad and Amtrak look good? These reports are produced by Amtrak, not some neutral third party.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/12 07:02 by prr60.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But, how about the contention that even when the
> train arrives EARLY, the 371 turn can't get out on
> time?
>
> That would suggest delays to the outbound train
> aren't the problem.


You are correct. Enroute delays to 371 are not the problem.

First I heard this issue was in mid-August, when the message received was
that the train had begun leaving persistently late "in the past few days." Apparently
that was when 370 to 371 was no longer to get a cut on Hours of Service at Grand Rapids
with an enroute recrew, except in case of emergency or exigent circumstance, which HAS
happened a very few times since.

With that, the crew takes full rest at Grand Rapids, where 1 hr. 15 min. is insufficient
time to reliably get 371 out on time. The crew must detrain passengers, inspect train
upon arrival and file necessary paperwork, get a clearance and take train to CSX yard,
spot it and secure it overnight, get driven to hotel and get rested, get driven back to
yard, open up the train, do a mandatory job briefing, start up the engines and cars,
inspect equipment, prepare it and do associated paperwork for the day's trip, take the
train to the station, get all the clearances, orders, Form B, etc., from CSX and usually NS.
I probably missed something and this may not all be in the correct sequence, but only
after that is done and the passenger boarding process complete, can the train depart.

I notice the word "paperwork" is used by some trainorders members. Isn't this the "new age" where paperwork has been replaced by some newfangled machine?

Ancient Mariner!

Nope still on paper

Train 370 is expected into Grand Rapids about 20 minutes late tonight. Let's see what time 371 (5) sets off Wednesday morning..

(Train 370 was reported 40 minutes late leaving Chicago, so it seems like it made up some time enroute. Thanks, CSX and NS!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/12 17:56 by Lackawanna484.