Passenger Trains > NJ Transit's damage list (and damage control)

The Bergen Record's Karen Rouse interviews NJ Transit's John Durso about what went wrong in the extensive flood damage to locomotives and rail cars. It's an interesting read-through, but it raises many more questions than it answers.

12 engines at Hoboken and 37 railcars in Hoboken. "Many" at MMC, it seems. No description of cars or locomotives at Bay Head. Some reports put the water level at Bay Head in the five feet depth, with surges of 8 feet. I understood the BHJ equipment had been moved to the relatively higher level of Long Branch.

Some cars and locomotives were moved to Waldwick yard, not usually a layover yard. (I wonder if these were the usual Suffern layovers?)

Morristown & Erie is repairing 10 diesel locomotives in its shops. Amtrak has supplied parts for repairs, as has Bombardier.


http://www.northjersey.com/news/state/NJ_Transit_tallies_rolling_stock_losses_due_to_Sandy.html?page=all

Some people need to get fired. MMC and Hoboken are too close to sea level and to the waterways that a 10 - 15 foot storm surge should have been taken as seriously as you would expect people to evacuate the barrier islands. Saying "it never happened before" was not a valid excuse for those residents, who Christie correctly called "stupid". So Christie and his Board Chairman/Commissioner ought to stop making excuses for their hapless, stupid excuse for a railroad whose corporate culture for 30 years is either to blame Amtrak or blame God.

Seriously, don't these people watch the Discovery Channel or the Weather Channel? ;) I remember seeing more than one show about the inevitability of a direct hurricane impact on NYC and what it would do. Maybe they're too busy listening to idiots like Rush Limbaugh blabbering about how he knows more than actual scientists...

You have to cut them a little slack. Every time there is ANY storm coming to the east coast, the media over hypes it like crazy, so there was no way to differentiate this from the usual BS.

This was all time storm...nothing like it before that anyone alive remembers. It was actually worse than the hype.
We tend to temper anything the media says against experience, and experience said "we've never seen anything this bad, so we are skeptical." Typically, a friend of mine in Northwest Jersey said a few days before the storm..."I don't think they (the weather forecasters) know what they are talking about." He lost power for 5 days, and part of his roof blew off, and he didn;t make any further comments.

All things considered, the NJ/NY area was reasonably well prepared. Considering all the ROW damage, getting most of the rail system
back operating in 2-3 weeks, is pretty good. Most of North Jersey didn;t even have electrical power for a week after the storm, and most business were closed down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/12 10:15 by pdt.

The term used prior to Sandy was "Storm Surge", which people did not interpret correctly. So everyone expected the usual things to happen: flooded out town along the Passaic and Bound Brook, and Manville. But none of that happened. The term Tsunami should have been used. That they understand even if the meteorological nerds would say It was incorrect because there was no earthquake.

Now we have this:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/track_ruin_probe_BNXIFWiGukBGbB3MPii6jP

Internal investigation is political theater. As Haley Barber would put it, what they need is a thorough going over by a proctologist.

"New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie has expressed support for the agency, which he said has done an “amazing job” post-Sandy.

That's like Bush-43's "atta boy Brown" for Katrina.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/12 10:21 by joemvcnj.

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have to cut them a little slack. Every time
> there is ANY storm coming to the east coast, the
> media over hypes it like crazy, so there was no
> way to differentiate this from the usual BS.
>
> This was all time storm...nothing like it before
> that anyone alive remembers. It was actually
> worse than the hype.
> We tend to temper anything the media says against
> experience, and experience said "we've never seen
> anything this bad, so we are skeptical."
> Typically, a friend of mine in Northwest Jersey
> said a few days before the storm..."I don't think
> they (the weather forecasters) know what they are
> talking about." He lost power for 5 days, and
> part of his roof blew off, and he didn;t make any
> further comments.
>
> All things considered, the NJ/NY area was
> reasonably well prepared. Considering all the ROW
> damage, getting most of the rail system
> back operating in 2-3 weeks, is pretty good. Most
> of North Jersey didn;t even have electrical power
> for a week after the storm, and most business were
> closed down.


Cut "who" slack. Every agency predicted "all time record" surges in conjuction with tides, moon cycles, pressure. Predicted path was known for 96 hours. Somebody at a high mgmt level made the call to "stand pat" in the face of all the predictions. This person needs to write a check for the damage! The cost of moving the equipment to higher ground was probably the primary factor in the equation and history will prove it was insignificant compared to the damage sustained. Pusspoor decision making/risk mgmt.

Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Why do I bother writing on this forum...like I'm going to impart some insight or knowledge to someone who obviously already knows everything. As someone once said "I'd like to see you put your fat ass in that chair and make that decision"

No, this is called conducting an investigation over NJT's gross mismanagement costing us millions of dollars.
If you are the sort that thinks only management knows best and the rest of us don't, you are certainly in the wrong forum.
Evidently the "fat asses" at LIRR, MN, and the NYCT made the right decisions. They are not glorified bus companies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/12 13:18 by joemvcnj.

NJ Transit shut down its operations 12 hours before Sandy and before any storm surge, etc. The company announced that it was moving its equipment to higher ground. In some cases, like moving equipment to Waldwick, or equipment out of Bay Head, it looks like that was done.

In other cases, like equipment in the old MU (Pullman?) yard in Hoboken (3 feet above sea level in the adjacent channel?) and the engine house in Hoboken (four feet?), many pieces weren't moved. Even a few hundred yards to the embankment for the lower Hack bridge or out by the tunnels would have been all that was needed.

I think it's legitimate to ask who gave orders, and why they weren't transmitted or carried out. If the governor or the head of NJ Transit won't ask, I'm sure the legislature will do it for them.

That's a pretty basic part of "lessons learned". What did we do well, what didn't we do well, and how are we going to fix this so we do better next time?

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, this is called conducting an investigation
> over NJT's gross mismanagement costing us millions
> of dollars.
> If you are the sort that thinks only management
> knows best and the rest of us don't, you are
> certainly in the wrong forum.
> Evidently the "fat asses" at LIRR, MN, and the
> NYCT made the right decisions. They are not
> glorified bus companies.

Sorry, you sound like just another nut who doesn't want to pay taxes, and has no idea what's involved in running a large transportation company. Suppose NJT was able to move all their equipment out of HOB and MMC, and then the storm was just average. You'd be complaining about your tax dollars being used to move equipment all over the place unnecessarily. I don;t defend stupid decisions by management, but when Management makes what seems like a reasonable decision to me, based on the info available and experience, I'll support them. I've sat in the hot seat, and never liked it when someone second guessed me after the fact. My guess is that you've never sat in the hot seat. Give it a try...everything changes. You'll see.....assuming you are competent enough that others would trust you with that sort of responsibility. But I digress.

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Why do I bother
> writing on this forum...like I'm going to impart
> some insight or knowledge to someone who obviously
> already knows everything. As someone once said
> "I'd like to see you put your fat ass in that
> chair and make that decision"

If I ran Jersey transit I would have the courage to say "find me high ground and move everything with wheels to that location." It is called accountability and somebody screwed up. A million or two people will pay for it and a biblical host of commuters have to put up with somebody's mistake. Accountability means people lose their jobs. Anything less is a free pass.

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA

john1082 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pdt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Why do I bother
> > writing on this forum...like I'm going to
> impart
> > some insight or knowledge to someone who
> obviously
> > already knows everything. As someone once said
> > "I'd like to see you put your fat ass in that
> > chair and make that decision"
>
> If I ran Jersey transit I would have the courage
> to say "find me high ground and move everything
> with wheels to that location." It is called
> accountability and somebody screwed up. A million
> or two people will pay for it and a biblical host
> of commuters have to put up with somebody's
> mistake. Accountability means people lose their
> jobs. Anything less is a free pass.


All in all, NJT has (had a relatively "young" fleet of equipment - the magnitude of multilevel train cars (as poorly designed as I think they are - as a commuter I hate them), the Comet Vs, the electric motors etc. The ALP45's had yet to really see significant train service (or at least service that couldn't have been covered by other trainsets). The repairs seem pretty significant though and I am sure we will see some sort of fare increase. NJT has seemed to spend more of its money on new equipment than servie expansion.

I am sure after "Sandy" NJT will begin to look at alternative equipment storage plans.

Hey PDT,

I was an ops mgr for FEDEX. I also functioned as Sr. Mgr and Acting Director of a major hub. When the wx. dept. told us to move the equipment, we did. Didn't matter the cost or the a/c availability, or line routings or Flight crew hours. The tails got repositioned. And god help anyone who didn't have the a/c ready for Dep. time, or the receiving ramp ready for inbounds.

Your passionate response is made null and void, moot, by the example of how many airlines lost aircraft in the northeast due Hurricane Sandy.

Mr pdt,

You are simply a railfan sticking up for NJT mgmt. NJT need to be run a real railroad, not political hacks within a bus company.
It has NOTHING to do with this Democrats willingness to pay taxes, so leave your political discourse out of here.
The expense of moving equipment is nothing compared to the repair costs we now have to face.
When FEMA sees this gross negligence, they will get no money. Then I expect Christie to dissolve and restructure NJT.

They also moved equipment out of Morrisville and Port Jervis to MMC. That was shear stupidity and ignored all forecasts. They pretended it was Irene-II, and stuck their heads in the sand. The storm surges, storm track, tide tables, full moon, and elevations of their yards were quite clear, as were the flood predictions. Trenton and the Catskills were never issues.

The smoking gun is in this Reuters article
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/17/us-storm-sandy-newjersey-railway-idUSBRE8AG0K220121117

LIRR, MN, and NYCT are run by professionals. Obviously, NJT is not.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/12 05:24 by joemvcnj.

First, we need the "lessons learned" review. What did we do right, wrong, and should we have done.

It's clear NJ Transit decided to move equipment, at least some equipment, in advance of the storm. Why were some decisions made, why were some destinations selected, or were directives simply ignored? That gets to the heart of "were these bad decisions (move them to low lying places)?" or were good decisions (move them to high places like the embankment) ignored or lacked staff to do them?

The example of FedEx and the airlines, and even NJ Transit Bus (which moved equipment from its way Down Neck Newark facilities) is a good one. A lot of folks understood that eight to 12 feet above high tide surges wouldn't be good if you were near sea level and near the Hudson River at the Battery.