Passenger Trains > # 59 of 23rd

Arrived Memphis this morning 52 mins. early at 5:35 am. Departed Memphis 6:52 am
and estimated arrival Jackson is 22 mins. late and New Orleans 52 mins. early .

The scheduled time for the train to go from Newbern to Memphis is 2 hrs., 31 mins. and
the CNL did it in 1 hr., 36 mins. Lots of padding certainly helps.

Since it Memphis so early the station stop was rather long. Too bad the train could not
have left at 6:00 am instead of 6:52 am and the arrival time at NOL would be better.

# 58 arrived Chicago 28 mins. early this morning

If only the CNL could have a daily schedule as it is doing today it would be great.
Alas, one can only dream of such things but it is encouraging to see the train doing well.

Very slow by comparison with the old IC CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, which left Chicago's Central Station about 8 am
and arrived New Orleans 11:59 pm THE SAME DAY. Was a good sized train on some occasions - all coaches plus
meal service cars. Can anyone confirm that it sometimes ran with as many as 20 cars?

Andy

twropr Wrote:
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> Very slow by comparison with the old IC CITY OF
> NEW ORLEANS, which left Chicago's Central Station
> about 8 am
> and arrived New Orleans 11:59 pm THE SAME DAY.
> Was a good sized train on some occasions - all
> coaches plus
> meal service cars. Can anyone confirm that it
> sometimes ran with as many as 20 cars?
>
> Andy

My grandfather was engineer on this train between Memphis and Canton, and I saw it on numerous occasions at Batesville and Grenada in the late 1950s and early 1960s. I cannot be specific about the consist, but I seem to remember about 12 or 14 coaches (segregated, of course), twin-diner, lounge, observation, and some head end.

It often had 18-20 cars even when Amtrak ran it as a steam-heated train. Gradually as head end power equipment was used, it started getting shorter. The final change to the shorter consist of today coincided with the switch from the last of the low level equipment to superliners 21 years ago. At that time the last of the Budd dome coaches went to retirement. There were usually two on this train, even up through 1992 or so.

As I recall, the City of New Orleans was one of the last trains to run with an entire consist of heritage equipment, one of the last trains to use steam heated equipment, and usually was the last train to give up whatever type of locomotive was the oldest in the fleet. It was one of the last hang-outs of F40's and B32's running together on a long-distance train anywhere. It was one of the last long distance trains to have P40's in regular service prior to them coming back on duty on the Autotrain under the G.W. Bush rebuild program 2008-2011.

While some might say giving the oldest junk to this train tended to downgrade it, I always thought it made it more interesting, and I looked forward to it.

twropr Wrote:
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Can anyone confirm that it
> sometimes ran with as many as 20 cars?
>
> Andy

twropr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very slow by comparison with the old IC CITY OF
> NEW ORLEANS, which left Chicago's Central Station
> about 8 am
> and arrived New Orleans 11:59 pm THE SAME DAY.
> Was a good sized train on some occasions - all
> coaches plus
> meal service cars. Can anyone confirm that it
> sometimes ran with as many as 20 cars?
>
> Andy

I can confirm fifteen cars/fifteen restless riders.

S. Goodman
from the Great Beyond

> My grandfather was engineer on this train between
> Memphis and Canton, and I saw it on numerous
> occasions at Batesville and Grenada in the late
> 1950s and early 1960s. I cannot be specific
> about the consist, but I seem to remember about 12
> or 14 coaches (segregated, of course), twin-diner,
> lounge, observation, and some head end.

Was the train segregated leaving Chicago, or just south of some point? Would a black patron riding from, say, Chicago to Carbondale been forced to ride an all-Black coach?

Very interesting question. Hope somebody older than I can answer it.

Some Jim Crow cars of the day had a partitition in the middle, kinda like "first class" now does on airlines. Chessie did that in the Tidewater and into West Virginia. That was when only one coach went to a particular place, as in the case today where they attempt to put 'through passengers' in one coach, and 'local' in another. A savvy conductor could have boarded one group from the vestibule ahead, and one group from the vestibule behind, avoiding any direct confrontational tactics.

On the longer consists, with multiple coaches, double spots might be required, as often happens today. Again, no real reason for confrontations to take place.

In later years, if there was only one coach on the train, during the pre-Amtrak days when the railroads were trying to get rid of passenger service, conductors still just directed passengers to a particular car, as they do now, or to a particular seat within a car, and there was very little room for discussion or concern about it. As with flight attendants today and the chances of going to Git'mo if you argue with one of them, railroad passengers typically just followed the directions of the conductor without question.

Only those "Jim Crow" cars with the partition would have been that noticible insofar as distinctions with the equipment...otherwise it was just a matter of signage. A little sign would appear on the restroom or at the drinking fountain indicating race. Those signs typically popped up around the time the train crossed the Ohio River. Doubt that the labels would have been up at Chicago, or that there would have been any segregation north of the Ohio River, but not really sure about that.

The Chessie cars had lighted electric signs on the bulkhead with a three way switch, as I am sure other southern railroads must have had. Again, the conductor operated it. It had a neutral position for "free territory" such as Southern Illinois. Then it could be toggled as between which race it was needed for in Jim Crow territory.

With the longer consist in the old days, it would probably have been possible to pull off more separated cars at conductor's discretion, both by race and by destination. That became much more difficult to accomplish as the trains got shorter. I think this single reason is why the roomier trains escaped much of the scrutiny that busses were under during the 1960's.

I do not recall any big publicity, media, or jurisdictional issues involving the City of New Orleans during the late 1950s and early 1960s. Most of the confrontations I can recall occurred on busses and at bus stations with regards to the "back vs front" issues. Bus tickets then, as now, were cheaper to purchase, and as today, certain socio-economic groups such as students, tend to flock to busses as opposed to other forms of transit.

Flaming segregation was also much more of a Mississippi thing in the 60s than it was Louisiana or Tennessee. New Orleans was very much used to its citizenry being of diverse heritage, and other than a flaming segregationist by the name of Leander Perez who was president of an outlying Parish, the New Orleans area was pretty laid back as I remember.

Partly because I am not old enough, I do not remember anything particularly out of the ordinary about how the City of New Orleans train moved out of the segregationist period. What I do remember most was the number of trains that were going away during the 60s, not necessary any social events that might have been taking place on board them. The media events I recall were mostly at dime store lunchcounters, movie theatres, on or about busses, in university campus situations, and occasionally at public schools.



> Was the train segregated leaving Chicago, or just
> south of some point? Would a black patron riding
> from, say, Chicago to Carbondale been forced to
> ride an all-Black coach?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/14 12:06 by NewRiverGeorge.

>
> > Was the train segregated leaving Chicago, or
> just
> > south of some point? Would a black patron
> riding
> > from, say, Chicago to Carbondale been forced to
> > ride an all-Black coach?


I remember riding the City once from Chicago to Grenada in the early 1960s, and the coaches were not segregated leaving Chicago, but as we moved into southern Illinois, a segregation pattern began to develop. I don't think people were asked to move, but using the destinations as a guide, passengers were steadily sorted out.

I also remember hearing from a Mississippi relative who made her first trip to Chicago on the same train in the 1940s that she didn't quite know what to do when black passengers entered her coach at Carbondale; she had never seen that before.

Something happened after leaving MEM as the train was 1 hr., 45 mins. late at Greenwood
and arrived New Orleans 56 mins. late at 4:26 pm. Very disappointing. Too bad it could not have made better time.

I remember riding the train with an American University group in the 70's. We were enrolled in a course which took us all over America. At one part of the trip we boarded the City of New Orleans
and went to our seats. As a northerner I felt it was like Plessy vs. Ferguson....it seemed to be just the way it was as blacks appeared to be seated in certain cars and whites in others. I will never forget the conductor frequently reminding us that "You WILL obey the orders of the train conductor."
It was as if he happened to be a policeman and he really stressed the word "will." Maybe that was normal but I never forgot it.

I rode this train in summer of 1967 from Chicago to Jackson ran in two sections to Jackson then one section went to nola with a few cars

I think it's time to extend #391 and #392 to Memphis.

Agreed! Can be done with the current schedule, just need an extra set of equipment and get KDOT (unlikely) and TDOT on board. Add stops in Anna, Cario, Millington.

jo-tower Wrote:
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> I think it's time to extend #391 and #392 to
> Memphis.